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secretman · † Joined: 10 Aug 2004 Posts: 1568

SOURCE:TCRNews Musings

Thomas E. Woods Repudiates Great Facade on Ratzinger / Benedict XVI

Thomas E. Woods, Church historian, who co-authored a vehemently anti-Vatican II book entitled The Great Facade in 2002 (Remnant Press), is reported to have left integrist circles not long after the publication of that book and will reportedly ask that his name be removed from any future reprintings of the book. Woods has since developed a reputation for sound theological-historical scholarship and is the author of the best seller, How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization . In a chat forum in January he wrote:

"...I have never considered Cardinal Ratzinger a "heretic," I absolutely repudiate all attacks on him that appear in The Great Facade. Those attacks are unfair and I am sorry to be associated with them.

And now... · A few words from our sponsors

ultima ratio · † Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 1679

Pete Vere · Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 231

Pete Vere · Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 231

Sorry, my last email was speaking only of comments made about Cardinal Ratzinger in the book as well as the book not appearing on Dr. Woods' official website. I do not know if he has publicly stated he wishes to have his name removed from any future printing of the book.

asenath · Joined: 22 Oct 2005 Posts: 485

Interesting if true! Note the parallel to John Allen - harsh criticism of Ratzinger in his prior biography (naturally from an entirely different perspective) compared to a much more understanding approach after his election as pope....

Dolorosa · † Joined: 10 Jun 2005 Posts: 1339 Location: Florida

Well, hey, the guy has to make a living selling his books and he was on EWTN to advertize them. Now that Ratzinger is the Pope he has changed his mind about him I guess ............... Confused

The news doesn't bother me as I've seen so many Catholics change throughout the years that it is scary. Who knows? Next we'll all hear that Pete Vere supports the SSPX! Stranger things have happened! Smile

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Bernie · Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 82

HallnOates · † Joined: 08 Aug 2005 Posts: 4477

That unsolved murder in Chicago anyone??

ultima ratio · † Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 1679

ultima ratio · † Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 1679

Bernie · Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 82

servitium · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 7809

fizmath · Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:11 pm Post subject:

This does not surprise me. Dr. Woods' books are heavily advertised in the neoconservative press. The neocons have been trying to co-opt conservative protestants and Catholics and get them to support their agenda. To fit in with this crowd you have to think that Rome is trying its best to fight evil in the world today. That also helps to sell books and get on EWTN. I recall a story in New Oxford Review which documented the attempt by the neocons to recruit NOR to propagandize Catholics on behalf of the Republican party. I also recall Woods defending Austrian School libertarian capitalism which is at odds with Catholic teaching on social order.

Let me stress that I don't know what Woods really believes but I am only speculating.

Bernie · Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 82

pascendi · † Joined: 11 Apr 2005 Posts: 7071 Location: San Diego

Hey, it's Bernie again! How have you been?
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ultima ratio · † Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 1679

Bernie · Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 82

pascendi · † Joined: 11 Apr 2005 Posts: 7071 Location: San Diego

ultima ratio · † Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 1679

Greg · Joined: 31 Mar 2006 Posts: 725

Wessex · † Joined: 15 Jun 2005 Posts: 918 Location: Guildford, UK

Not so sure. Whereas liberals become conservatives as they get older as part of the maturing process ..... and having to compete with the radicalism of youth .... where can someone like me go who was born a cynical reactionary son of a ........ ??

Bernie · Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 82

Dear Ultima Ratio,

Please forgive me, a moron relative of mine, who shall remain nameless (haven't we all got one of those???) has got a hold of my password and has been logging on under my name and posting their views! No No

Please disregard all of the posts that begin with "Dear Chris", they did NOT come from me , and I do NOT vouch for them! The most frustrating thing is that I have not been able to disavow them of their dogged opinion that you are indeed Christ Ferrara!!!

I have been assured that this will not happen again, and please be assured, I WILL deal with this abuse of my posting privileges, in the most severe manner imaginable. No chocolate, no candy, no fun fairs, no bedtime stories .... Wink

Bernie

servitium · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 7809

Pete Vere · Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 231

schoolman · Joined: 23 Nov 2005 Posts: 3336

TomW · Joined: 03 Jul 2006 Posts: 23

I would like to make a few brief comments, and then that will be it. Family and professional obligations mean that I will have neither the time nor the ability to reply further.

Much as I appreciate Pete Vere's defense of me, I believe he is being misleading. He speaks of "our last telephone conversation." We have spoken only once, while I was trying to bathe my (then) two baby girls. (Incidentally, I did not put Lord of the Rings into the machine for them -- they have never watched it, since it is far too violent for them. 99% of what they watch is animated.)

As for this matter of The Great Facade, I do now believe that the attacks on Ratzinger and some others of his variety are the sloppy work of amateur theologians. I would never claim that one needs a doctorate in theology to evaluate Vatican policy, but serious theological issues are another matter. One of the unfortunate consequences of the crisis in the Church is that now everyone considers himself a trained theologian who can settle complicated matters. You can wind up making a fool of yourself.

The good folks at The Remnant are obviously trying to get under my skin by describing me as a "former traditionalist writer," but then I suppose Michael Davies, whose unfinished project in 2004 (he told a good mutual friend) was a book entitled In Defense of Cardinal Ratzinger, is also a "former traditionalist writer."

Most people on the Catholic right find it hard to accommodate differing views by their fellow-orthodox on matters that are not essential -- indeed, that are often policy disputes, however important -- and I think Iâ€™m living proof of that.

schoolman · Joined: 23 Nov 2005 Posts: 3336

Pete Vere · Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 231

Otremer6 · † Joined: 18 Dec 2005 Posts: 4125

servitium · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 7809

ultima ratio · † Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 1679

ultima ratio · † Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 1679

asenath · Joined: 22 Oct 2005 Posts: 485

With examples like this, is it any wonder that serious christians like Rod Dreher are moving to Eastern Orthodoxy?

ThMore · Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 531

Otremer6 · † Joined: 18 Dec 2005 Posts: 4125

The Orthodox swim in the same sea and suffer from prelates with the same indoctrination as ours, like Patriarch Barthalomeos of Constantinople, who was himself educated at the Gregorian in Rome.

Switching sides to the Orthodox won't solve the problem of modernity. The spirit and assumptions of modernism are even at work on the Holy Mountain.

ultima ratio · † Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 1679

Matthaei · Joined: 05 Mar 2005 Posts: 2088 Location: L.A.

Matthaei · Joined: 05 Mar 2005 Posts: 2088 Location: L.A.

Longinus II · Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 533 Location: Laveen, Arizona

This Thomas Woods affair is strikingly similar to the Steven Hand debacle. The heat of holding a public posture of traditionalism must not be easy for one whose lively hood depends on a reasonable return of monies for efforts put forth. And if ones feet are not on sea-worthy legs, the shaking, rattling, and rolling barque makes for a scarey ride. Much justification follows; nuanced statements to validate change, emotional diatribe, and, finally, verbal assault.

One never knows which way ones head will be facing when it completes its final turn.

et cum spirit 220 · Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: Some clarification

TDMarieD · † Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 814

[quote="Pete Vere
1) I put Lord of the Rings in for my girls, not yours.
2) I kept records of phone conversations -- plural.[/quote]

How could you possibly do such a sly thing?
Do you have early Alzheimer"s or something?
Tisk. Tisk.

Otremer6 · † Joined: 18 Dec 2005 Posts: 4125

There are some states where it is not illegal to record phone conversations without permission, using an audio recorder. I don't know if it's against Canadian Law to do that.

What would be wrong with using a number 2 pencil to make a "recording" of the phone conversation?

Father McBrien: Hello, Mr. Vere, how are you?

Pete Vere: Father, you don't mind if I record this phone conversation, do you?

Father McBrien: Why, uh, sure, go right ahead.

Pete Vere: Okay, there, I hit play.

servitium · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 7809

He didn't state that he recorded their conversations, he stated that he kept a record.

Are we having difficultly reading simple English?

jadep · † Joined: 16 Jul 2005 Posts: 814 Location: Oklahoma

servitium · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 7809

Pete Vere · Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 231

jadep · † Joined: 16 Jul 2005 Posts: 814 Location: Oklahoma

TDMarieD · † Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 814

jadep · † Joined: 16 Jul 2005 Posts: 814 Location: Oklahoma

Here is the quote that started it all:
"And although I have never considered Cardinal Ratzinger a "heretic," I absolutely repudiate all attacks on him that appear in The Great Facade. Those attacks are unfair and I am sorry to be associated with them." -- Tom Woods

Now to be fair, earlier a poster on that forum had said that "The Great Facade" called Ratzinger an heretic. So in that context, Wood's statement might not be as bad as you first think. However, he needs to be clear. A proper response would have been "I have never considered Cardinal Ratzinger an heretic, and this was nowhere stated or implied in our book, however, we did unfairly attack the Cardinal when we stated .... and this I regret" Perhaps he can at the minimum post on his website that The Great Facade never called Ratzinger an heretic.

ultima ratio · † Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 1679