[The following interview by Alessandro Gnocchi and Mario Palmaro with Archbishop Ranjith originally appeared in Italian in Il Foglio -- and was translated by the kindness of one of our readers. Archbishop Ranjith's comments are in italics.]
ROME. Today, September 14th, comes into force the Motu Proprio of Pope Benedict which "liberalises" the Tridentine Mass, thus allowing the faithful who so desire to participate, in every parish, in celebrations in Latin according to the Missal of St. Pius V. In contrast until now to do so a special dispensation by the diocesan bishop was necessary.
Archbishop Malcolm Ranjith is the secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, the Vatican vice-minister of liturgy.
In this interview he expresses the expectations and concerns of his dicastery in view of the reception which the Motu Proprio "Summorum Pontificum" has had in the Catholic Church. The document through which Benedict XVI has liberalised the Tridentine Mass has in fact aroused a great deal of interest. But it seems that many judge it only in ideological terms in light of the so-called spirit of the II Vatican Council.
For Msgr. Ranjith, however, "the Pope has profoundly esteemed the increasing requests of faithful in favour of the return of the Tridentine rite, and, also taking into account the current results of the post-conciliar liturgical reforms has made his decision.
"What is to be done now is not seeing spectres of divisions or retrograde theologies behind this decision, but to listen attentively and to obey with loyalty. It is not true that the reform of Paul VI is being devaluated. The Pope calls it the ordinary expression of the Mass. I believe that because of this decision some essential values of the liturgy will again be emphasised more, be it in the one or in the other way of celebrating.
"I am certain that above all the bishops, who at the moment of assuming their episcopal ministry have professed their complete loyalty and obedience to the Supreme Pontiff, will accept this decision with sentiments of generous collaboration and will safeguard the faithful implementation of the instructions of the Motu Proprio in the manner in which it is assigned to them, respecting the specific identities of the two manners of celebrating.
"I see that generally, the Motu Proprio has been well received. In any case, to speak of this as a move against the II Vatican Council would not only be a complete misapprehension, but also an attempt to create divisions in the Church. I don't see any reason for such alarmism."
The Pope seems to have made the liturgical question one of the fundamental themes of his pontificate.
"Already since the time of his episcopal ministry in Munich he had shown a great interest for the liturgical question. That on which he, now as Pope, continues to insist is the centrality of the eternal principle lex orandi, lex credendi, and the absolute necessity to know, celebrate and live profoundly the mystery of the liturgy as life-giving principle of the Church.
"The Pope wants that all the faithful enjoy that noble and transcendent as well as profoundly transforming sense of the liturgy. The liturgy is not so much what is being studied, as what is being celebrated, believed and lived."
There are many young priests, under 40, who are interested in the traditional liturgy.
"It's an interesting phenomenon, this demand by the young priests. To me it is a sign of the times and the II Vatican Council advised us to always be attentive to these signs. I see a strong thirst among them to be true to the demands of their vocation. The youth of today who decide to become priests make a choice which entails perhaps more sacrifices than those of yesterday. When we entered seminary, for instance, the atmosphere was more religious than today. I see that in some cases, this search leads them to choose a more traditional sense of the liturgy, to wear the cassock or some priestly or religious insignia, and to be ready to make other choices indicative of their vocation.
"This should not signify a condemnation of others who maybe have thought not to insist so much on these external apsects of their identity. But the times change. The youth want more coherence. The enthusiasm of the youth is always encouraged, not disregarded."
In these years many liturgical celebrations have shown a tendency to an abasement of the divine towards the human instead of the raising of the human towards the supernatural. Do you believe that the traditional liturgy will contribute to remedy this fact?
"Not only the traditional liturgy, but also the one of the Novus Ordo, if it is celebrated with faith, devotion, decorum, a sense of faithfulness to the norms and spirtual rigour, is capable of raising the human heart towards a true adoration of God. As the Pope says, 'the liturgy ... is veritatis splendor'. It (sc. the liturgy) is not something which we are doing, but rather something heavenly to which we are called to conform ourselves also in the external aspects. On the other hand it is the Church who celebrates the liturgy: adoration and praise of its Lord, as his people. Because of this ecclesial dimension, in the words of the Council in "Sacrosanctum Concilium", "no one else at all, be he even a priest, shall add, subtract or change anything on his own initiative in matters liturgical." The current problem is a spirit of disorder in the liturgical discipline, widely spread in different parts of the world. This situation is the result of a defective liturgical formation on different levels. Various priests do not know the true meaning of what is celebrated and propagate a "do it yourself" liturgy.
"Unfortunately, in some cases even the bishops themselves have become immobile and inconsistent, passively tolerating this situation or even, in some rare cases encouraging such attitudes. And then there are rather pedantic attitudes of some theorists, who have unfortunately forgotten that the liturgy is not so much an intellectual act as an act of adoration, and therefore of prfound spirituality and faith."
We are witnessing a flight of the faithful towards two opposite extremes: the search for mysticism at all costs or the banalisation.
"What has happened in the name of the so-called 'spirit of the Council', which has not even been faithful to the instructions of its (the Council's) various documents, has caused grave damages to the Church, above all because of certain liturgical adventurism. This observation must not be interpreted as a criticism of the Council, but as a proposal to link again to what it had really stated. Some of the major changes in the liturgy have never been wished for by the Council. The banalisation of the eternal mysteries of the liturgy, achieved and justified by some liturgists, is now creating a growing demand to abandon altogether the earthly aspects and enter a phase of marked mysticism. A sane sense of equilibrium between the two aspects, i.e. the descendent and the ascendent, as well as a true appreciation of the eternal value of what truly happens in the liturgy, is important. The constant clarifications of Pope Benedict on the true nature of the liturgy are indications for the Church and above all for the bishops and the clergy about that necessary equilibrium. Without such an attitude one risks falling into superficiality and formalism on one side, and on the other side into a spiritualism that does not inspire to make Christian choices in life."
By means of the liturgical errors also doctrinal errors have come to pass. Will it be possible to remedy these also by means of the Tridentine liturgy?
"I believe yes, but the word 'also' is important. We mustn't abandon the attempts to make known to all the eternal value of every form of liturgical celebration, above all of the Novus Ordo. By way of the correction of some of these liturgical exaggerations, which probably the Tridentine Mass will facilitate in the coming years, there will be a further improvement of the Novus Ordo and thus also an overcoming of the theological crisis caused by the banalising tendencies of the liturgy."
Many priests and many faithful seem fearful to request the application of what the Pope has determined to be their right. Perhaps an encouragement is needed.
"I don't see what we need fear, for fear means a lack of faith. Besides, it would be grave in a world which abandons the sense of discipline and suffers because of this, if any shepherd of the Church gave a negative example in this sense, disobeying the Pope. That would implicate a counter-witness to Christ Who humbled Himself, and became obedient to the Father unto the death of the cross."
"I am certain that above all the bishops, who at the moment of assuming their episcopal ministry have professed their complete loyalty and obedience to the Supreme Pontiff, will accept this decision with sentiments of generous collaboration and will safeguard the faithful implementation of the instructions of the Motu Proprio in the manner in which it is assigned to them, respecting the specific identities of the two manners of celebrating.
And I am certain the archbishop is wrong. Many bishops have already indicated their hostility towards the Motu Proprio. _________________ TRADIDI QUOD ET ACCEPI
The most telling words in the interview. This fellow is not to be trusted.
Fr Schmidberger seems to think he can be trusted. Remember that he is going to be constrained to present this as something which is positive for the NO as well. Imagine the manure that would hit the fan if he actually said that this was a nail in the coffin for the NO.
What is interesting is that he appears to be pinning the solution of the problems with the NO onto the Tridentine Mass! Has any such statement made by a high-ranking official been uttered before in the last 40 years? It seems to me that they are laying the foundations for a much greater restoration to come. I certainly think he would make a better head of the CDW than Arinze.
"I am certain that above all the bishops, who at the moment of assuming their episcopal ministry have professed their complete loyalty and obedience to the Supreme Pontiff, will accept this decision with sentiments of generous collaboration and will safeguard the faithful implementation of the instructions of the Motu Proprio in the manner in which it is assigned to them, respecting the specific identities of the two manners of celebrating.
And I am certain the archbishop is wrong. Many bishops have already indicated their hostility towards the Motu Proprio.
Of course he is wrong on the facts as they stand at the moment. But that isn't the way romanita works. He is effectively giving notice that the bishops' loyalty is going to be measured according to this yardstick. He is actually being quite provocative and if it carries any weight from higher up should make for some interesting ad limina visits.
To publicly remind bishops of their duty of loyalty and obedience is quite unheard of in recent Vatican history. There is no bowing at the altar of collegiality here.
By means of the liturgical errors also doctrinal errors have come to pass. Will it be possible to remedy these also by means of the Tridentine liturgy?
"I believe yes, but the word 'also' is important. We mustn't abandon the attempts to make known to all the eternal value of every form of liturgical celebration, above all of the Novus Ordo. By way of the correction of some of these liturgical exaggerations, which probably the Tridentine Mass will facilitate in the coming years, there will be a further improvement of the Novus Ordo and thus also an overcoming of the theological crisis caused by the banalising tendencies of the liturgy."
I don't see this as giving any priority to the NOM over the TLM. Rather he seems to be saying that the corrections of various errors or abuses will impact (above all) the NOM rather than the TLM.
You'll never hear a Vatican official saying anything bad about the NO. Yet Bishop Fellay says that privately Vatican officials have told him that the NO will be dead in a generation (and he says he's thinking more about two generations - a more realistic opinion IMO).
You don't really expect Archbishop Ranjith, who will most likely become the Prefect for that Congregation and thus a Cardinal (Card. Arinze will become 75 on Nov. 1), to openly slam the NO.
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:39 pm Post subject: Voting with their feet.
In my opinion catholics will vote with their feet at to which Mass they prefer and go to the Mass that uplifts them, stirs their very soul and puts them in the presence of God. I watched the Solemn Mass in the EF at Hanceville on the 14th and then watched the one in the OF from Our Lady of Sorrows on the 15th. There was no comparison and I think anyone with a modicum of knowledge of the Faith would see the difference. The words extraordinary and ordinary clearly apply.
When the statistics are in via the offertory contributions and mass attendance, the bishops will know on which side their bread is buttered and will act accordingly. Sadly, this is the state our church is in today - i.e., that bishops can't see the truth before being hit in the eyes with it and in their pocketbooks. The restoration is underway; thanks be to God. _________________ Pre-Vatican II Catholic-16 yrs Catholic schooling.
You'll never hear a Vatican official saying anything bad about the NO. Yet Bishop Fellay says that privately Vatican officials have told him that the NO will be dead in a generation (and he says he's thinking more about two generations - a more realistic opinion IMO).
You don't really expect Archbishop Ranjith, who will most likely become the Prefect for that Congregation and thus a Cardinal (Card. Arinze will become 75 on Nov. 1), to openly slam the NO.
Unfortunately he does. He can safely be ignored while the rest of us rejoice and give thanks to God for the incredible turn of events we've witnessed over the past few weeks and months. _________________ Uni trinoque Domino, Sit sempiterna gloria!
Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 489 Location: London, United Kingdom
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:51 pm Post subject:
TradPGH wrote:
Unfortunately he does. He can safely be ignored while the rest of us rejoice and give thanks to God for the incredible turn of events we've witnessed over the past few weeks and months.
You seem to forget that it is because of liturgically faithful prelates like Archbishop Ranjith who lobbied for the motu proprio, that it managed to see the day of light. _________________ Dominus Meus et Deus Meus!
Unfortunately he does. He can safely be ignored while the rest of us rejoice and give thanks to God for the incredible turn of events we've witnessed over the past few weeks and months.
You seem to forget that it is because of liturgically faithful prelates like Archbishop Ranjith who lobbied for the motu proprio, that it managed to see the day of light.
If I may presume to speak for TradPGH, his comment apparently refers not to Abp. Ranjith but to another AQ poster who is critical of Ranjith.
Unfortunately he does. He can safely be ignored while the rest of us rejoice and give thanks to God for the incredible turn of events we've witnessed over the past few weeks and months.
You seem to forget that it is because of liturgically faithful prelates like Archbishop Ranjith who lobbied for the motu proprio, that it managed to see the day of light.
I was talking about the resident wet blanket, not the good Archbishop. _________________ Uni trinoque Domino, Sit sempiterna gloria!
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:41 pm Post subject: Reading of the riot act
Although Archbishop Ranjith's comments are somewhat clouded by rominitas, our modernist bishops will no doubt be reading this interview as a declaration of war. How thoroughly lavenderized, peace and vegetable rights modernists respond to this reading of the "riot act" will be interesting to follow. Will modernist bishops try to keep quietly undercover as they did in the build-up to Vatican 2, or will they throw hissy-fits as sodomites so often do? At the very least, some passive-aggressive behavior from more than a few of our ordinaries is to be expected. Let's spare a thought for all modernist cardinals, bishops and priests as they fade into irrelevance, and the sun rises on a new dawn.
Joined: 15 Jun 2005 Posts: 918 Location: Guildford, UK
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject:
Another joker in the stable of Vatican clowns. To them ancient liturgies are to do with style and not substance and putting on a different act may flush out some much-needed denari from otherwise reluctant trad pockets. Alas, some of these tired folk are ignoring the product label that all this is done in the name of Vatican 2, the philosophy of Newchurch. Fools keep rushing in, etc., etc.
Praise God for the Motu proprio and thank you Holy Father for making the liturgy a priority of your pontificate. Archbishop Rajinth has more encouraging words, agreed.
Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Posts: 478 Location: Archdiocese of Atlanta
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject:
Wessex wrote:
Another joker in the stable of Vatican clowns. To them ancient liturgies are to do with style and not substance and putting on a different act may flush out some much-needed denari from otherwise reluctant trad pockets. Alas, some of these tired folk are ignoring the product label that all this is done in the name of Vatican 2, the philosophy of Newchurch. Fools keep rushing in, etc., etc.
Stop it. Now.
Stable of Vatican clowns...wow. Man, you are a Catholic. Act like it.
If you disagree with what Archbishop Ranjith says, how about you give us a little substance instead of Newchurch this, and Newchurch that. _________________ Pax Christi,
Roger
Archbishop Albert Malcom Ranjith Patabendige: It is our duty to be vigilant Because, in the end, the people will assist at the Tridentine Mass and our churches will empty.
The good Archbishop himself has distinguished "his" churches from those in which the TLM is offered. You can rejoice all you want, send him a check, and name your babies Albert Malcom Ranjith Patabendige for all I care, while "safely" ignoring me. But when the time comes to fish or cut bait, and the resources and clout go to "his" churches, and you're left hanging, don't say I didn't warn you.
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:13 am Post subject: This guy gets it.
Quote:
From 13 July 2006:
Archbishop Albert Malcom Ranjith Patabendige: It is our duty to be vigilant Because, in the end, the people will assist at the Tridentine Mass and our churches will empty.
Taken in the context that those worshiping the All-Powerful and Ever-Living God in the TLM are putting themselves in the awesome presence of God... to contemplate the Majesty and Glory and Power of Him Who made everything out of nothing and who allows a puny human being with all sorts of self-imposed defects to contemplate Him, indeed to approach Him and receive Him into his heart... this human being called Man who is nothing more than a grain of sand in the ocean of the universe to be held by Him, consoled by Him, protected by Him and eventually rescued by Him for glories everlasting...this changes the view of what the archbishop has said from a purely practical, utilitarian point of view to one that is grounded in the Faith and mystical beyond belief, and it is that view that I wish to give credence. We shall see, of course, but it is at least in the realm of possibility that this is the case. _________________ Pre-Vatican II Catholic-16 yrs Catholic schooling.
Archbishop Albert Malcom Ranjith Patabendige: It is our duty to be vigilant Because, in the end, the people will assist at the Tridentine Mass and our churches will empty.
The good Archbishop himself has distinguished "his" churches from those in which the TLM is offered. You can rejoice all you want, send him a check, and name your babies Albert Malcom Ranjith Patabendige for all I care, while "safely" ignoring me. But when the time comes to fish or cut bait, and the resources and clout go to "his" churches, and you're left hanging, don't say I didn't warn you.
You appear to presume he is referring to SSPX chapels when he says our churches will be empty. Im not sure thats the case, but there are two points to make:
#1 You cant have it both ways. Is the SSPX under the hierarchal structure of the Church? If they are not, then it should surprise nobody to hear him make the distinction between theirs and ours.
#2 Context. This statement you quote was from July of 2006. This is a year before the motu proprio was published. This is a novus ordo bishop who celebrates the novus ordo in a novus ordo environment. Again, it is not unreasonable for him to make a distinction between theirs and ours in 2006. I believe theirs would refer to the FSSP, ICK and the indult communities of which he is surely aware. He knows that there are many growing families flocking to the TLM and the tremendous growth occurring in these communities. He also understands what it is thats drawing them in. With this statement, he is in effect laying the preparation for the motu proprio a year in advance of its release, and arguing for its need. Now that we have the motu proprio and we are seeing more TLMs available in novus ordo parishes, I doubt he would make that same distinction; there is no longer a need to, as we are working within a new framework that didnt exist when the above quote was taken.
You can stay safely entrenched in your bunker for all I care. I will give thanks to God that there are at least a few known prelates who get it. We are witnessing the first step towards the restoration of the True Faith. I dont think Im crazy for having this hope, though you may say I am. _________________ Uni trinoque Domino, Sit sempiterna gloria!
Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 489 Location: London, United Kingdom
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:57 am Post subject:
TradPGH wrote:
This is a novus ordo bishop who celebrates the novus ordo in a novus ordo environment.
He is also reputed to celebrate the traditional mass privately and is not hostile to the SSPX at all, according to this - Light in the Darkness by Fr. Franz Schmidbeger SSPX:
Quote:
"Another tiny light of hope is the appointment of a bishop from Sri Lanka to the Roman Curia. His name is Bishop Malcolm Ranjith [say: Ran-jit]. I had the opportunity to meet him last year in March (2001) in his diocese in the bishops house in Ratnapura, located in the middle of Sri Lanka. We had a very good discussion for two hours. He told me, there is no doubt that there is a profound link between the crisis of the priesthood, the crisis of the identity of the priest, on the one side, and all that is going on in the liturgy on the other side. He said if we want to restore the Church, if we want to bring a true renewal to the Church, we must begin there, in the very center. We understood each other very well.
At the very beginning of the month of October, we suddenly heard that Bishop Ranjith was nominated an Archbishop, and that he was appointed Joint Secretary to the Congregations for the Propaganda of the Faith and the Evangelization of the People in Rome. Some days later, I again had the opportunity to meet him, because he has a married sister in Germany. Once again, we had a very deep and very healthy conversation, and he said, I agree 200% with you that there really is a problem in the Church with the liturgy and the priesthood, and both go together. We must work on this, and there is no doubt that the Pope has to set free the true Catholic Mass for everyoneI am going now to Rome where I will have my private chapel. I have just taken care to get a Missal of St. Pius V to celebrate Mass as it should be."
This is a novus ordo bishop who celebrates the novus ordo in a novus ordo environment.
He is also reputed to celebrate the traditional mass privately and is not hostile to the SSPX at all, according to this - Light in the Darkness by Fr. Franz Schmidbeger SSPX:
Quote:
"Another tiny light of hope is the appointment of a bishop from Sri Lanka to the Roman Curia. His name is Bishop Malcolm Ranjith [say: Ran-jit]. I had the opportunity to meet him last year in March (2001) in his diocese in the bishops house in Ratnapura, located in the middle of Sri Lanka. We had a very good discussion for two hours. He told me, there is no doubt that there is a profound link between the crisis of the priesthood, the crisis of the identity of the priest, on the one side, and all that is going on in the liturgy on the other side. He said if we want to restore the Church, if we want to bring a true renewal to the Church, we must begin there, in the very center. We understood each other very well.
At the very beginning of the month of October, we suddenly heard that Bishop Ranjith was nominated an Archbishop, and that he was appointed Joint Secretary to the Congregations for the Propaganda of the Faith and the Evangelization of the People in Rome. Some days later, I again had the opportunity to meet him, because he has a married sister in Germany. Once again, we had a very deep and very healthy conversation, and he said, I agree 200% with you that there really is a problem in the Church with the liturgy and the priesthood, and both go together. We must work on this, and there is no doubt that the Pope has to set free the true Catholic Mass for everyoneI am going now to Rome where I will have my private chapel. I have just taken care to get a Missal of St. Pius V to celebrate Mass as it should be."
Well, this is great information. Thanks for providing it. I think we have even more reason to be optimistic than we realized. _________________ Uni trinoque Domino, Sit sempiterna gloria!
Can someone explain what Archbishop Ranjith is talking about here?
Quote:
The banalisation of the eternal mysteries of the liturgy, achieved and justified by some liturgists, is now creating a growing demand to abandon altogether the earthly aspects and enter a phase of marked mysticism.
This is a novus ordo bishop who celebrates the novus ordo in a novus ordo environment.
He is also reputed to celebrate the traditional mass privately and is not hostile to the SSPX at all, according to this - Light in the Darkness by Fr. Franz Schmidbeger SSPX:
Quote:
"Another tiny light of hope is the appointment of a bishop from Sri Lanka to the Roman Curia. His name is Bishop Malcolm Ranjith [say: Ran-jit]. I had the opportunity to meet him last year in March (2001) in his diocese in the bishops house in Ratnapura, located in the middle of Sri Lanka. We had a very good discussion for two hours. He told me, there is no doubt that there is a profound link between the crisis of the priesthood, the crisis of the identity of the priest, on the one side, and all that is going on in the liturgy on the other side. He said if we want to restore the Church, if we want to bring a true renewal to the Church, we must begin there, in the very center. We understood each other very well.
At the very beginning of the month of October, we suddenly heard that Bishop Ranjith was nominated an Archbishop, and that he was appointed Joint Secretary to the Congregations for the Propaganda of the Faith and the Evangelization of the People in Rome. Some days later, I again had the opportunity to meet him, because he has a married sister in Germany. Once again, we had a very deep and very healthy conversation, and he said, I agree 200% with you that there really is a problem in the Church with the liturgy and the priesthood, and both go together. We must work on this, and there is no doubt that the Pope has to set free the true Catholic Mass for everyoneI am going now to Rome where I will have my private chapel. I have just taken care to get a Missal of St. Pius V to celebrate Mass as it should be."
Can that quote by Ranjith be corroborated? _________________ Nisi solum Iesum
Archbishop Albert Malcom Ranjith Patabendige: It is our duty to be vigilant Because, in the end, the people will assist at the Tridentine Mass and our churches will empty.
The good Archbishop himself has distinguished "his" churches from those in which the TLM is offered. You can rejoice all you want, send him a check, and name your babies Albert Malcom Ranjith Patabendige for all I care, while "safely" ignoring me. But when the time comes to fish or cut bait, and the resources and clout go to "his" churches, and you're left hanging, don't say I didn't warn you.
You appear to presume he is referring to SSPX chapels when he says our churches will be empty. Im not sure thats the case, but there are two points to make:
#1 You cant have it both ways. Is the SSPX under the hierarchal structure of the Church? If they are not, then it should surprise nobody to hear him make the distinction between theirs and ours.
#2 Context. This statement you quote was from July of 2006. This is a year before the motu proprio was published. This is a novus ordo bishop who celebrates the novus ordo in a novus ordo environment. Again, it is not unreasonable for him to make a distinction between theirs and ours in 2006. I believe theirs would refer to the FSSP, ICK and the indult communities of which he is surely aware. He knows that there are many growing families flocking to the TLM and the tremendous growth occurring in these communities. He also understands what it is thats drawing them in. With this statement, he is in effect laying the preparation for the motu proprio a year in advance of its release, and arguing for its need. Now that we have the motu proprio and we are seeing more TLMs available in novus ordo parishes, I doubt he would make that same distinction; there is no longer a need to, as we are working within a new framework that didnt exist when the above quote was taken.
You can stay safely entrenched in your bunker for all I care. I will give thanks to God that there are at least a few known prelates who get it. We are witnessing the first step towards the restoration of the True Faith. I dont think Im crazy for having this hope, though you may say I am.
I don't think you're crazy. Just fooling yourself. The aabsp is clearly making a distinction between "his" NO churches and all churches in which the TLM is offered. I don;t believe that he was talking about the SSPX specifically. If all of the rumors you so dearly loved to swallow prior to ths past July were accurate, the absp also at that time new very well taht the MP was coming, and knew essentialy what it said. The subsequent issuance of the MP makes no difference in the stark demarcation of camps made by the absp.
As long as "my" bunker is insulated from the sick mentality that gives us windsock prelates such as the absp in question, I will happily stay here. This is a war, and someone has to man the bunkers while others imitate the Vichy French. Enjoy the waters while they let you.
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:34 am Post subject: Re: Archbishop Ranjith of CDW on Motu Proprio
Quote:
I am certain that above all the bishops, who at the moment of assuming their episcopal ministry have professed their complete loyalty and obedience to the Supreme Pontiff, will accept this decision with sentiments of generous collaboration and will safeguard the faithful implementation of the instructions of the Motu Proprio in the manner in which it is assigned to them, respecting the specific identities of the two manners of celebrating.
Would love to know the Archbishop's reaction to this:
Also, what does it mean to "respect the specific identities of the two manners of celebrating"?
Isn't this the same Archbishop who was photographed lighting a candle in a Hindu shrine?
So what if he recognizes that the TLM is the proper way to worship as a Catholic in his private chapel -- isn't it time to make a more public testimony? The wolves are howling. Should we not expect to hear the voice of the shepherd strong and clear? _________________ Nisi solum Iesum
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Ranjith
ecumenicaltraddie wrote:
et cum spirit 220 wrote:
Quote:
"...above all of the Novus Ordo."
The most telling words in the interview. This fellow is not to be trusted.
OK. Tell that Father Schmidberger then. He had nearly glowing accounts of Archbishop Ranjith.
If we can't trust the SSPX, then whom do we trust? Just certain priests of the SSPX?
Why do you take Fr. Schmidberger as gospel? Because you agree with him? I would suspect that you would get different answers from different priests in any order. What does Bsp. Fellay say? His is the only opinion that really carries weight.
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:12 am Post subject: Re: Ranjith
et cum spirit 220 wrote:
ecumenicaltraddie wrote:
et cum spirit 220 wrote:
Quote:
"...above all of the Novus Ordo."
The most telling words in the interview. This fellow is not to be trusted.
OK. Tell that Father Schmidberger then. He had nearly glowing accounts of Archbishop Ranjith.
If we can't trust the SSPX, then whom do we trust? Just certain priests of the SSPX?
Why do you take Fr. Schmidberger as gospel? Because you agree with him? I would suspect that you would get different answers from different priests in any order. What does Bsp. Fellay say? His is the only opinion that really carries weight.
I am sure one would get different answers from different priests, as you say, even within the SSPX, on many questions. But Fr Schmidberger is a senior priest and I think one is in good company if one agrees with him. But as you say, Bishop Fellay may have a different view. I suppose, as Superior General of the SSPX, his opinion is what really counts - well, at least it's the opinion which counts the most - but even if his opinion binds the SSPX (which I am not sure it does), that does not stop individual SSPX priests privately holding another opinion; still less does it oblige or bind in any way any lay Catholic who happens to hear Mass at an SSPX chapel, any more that the opinions of the General Superior of the Jesuits binds Catholics who attend Mass at a Jesuit church.
That's my two cents worth - as I haven't read the whole thread, quite possibly off topic, but I had to say it!
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Archbishop Ranjith of CDW on Motu Proprio
et cum spirit 220 wrote:
Sed Contra wrote:
Isn't this the same Archbishop who was photographed lighting a candle in a Hindu shrine?
Unless you're talking about a different incident, that was NOT absp. Rajith. See here.
My mistake. I'll retract that part of my comment. There was another photo involving Ranjith and a statue of a Hindu diety (I'm nearly certain that that one did in fact feature Ranjith), however I cannot find it now.
Still wondering what the Archbishop is getting at here:
Quote:
The banalisation of the eternal mysteries of the liturgy, achieved and justified by some liturgists, is now creating a growing demand to abandon altogether the earthly aspects and enter a phase of marked mysticism.
He also seems to be at pains to preserve the Novus Ordo and the legacy of Vatican II. Not surprising, of course, yet not necessarily encouraging, either. Still, on the whole he has some very good things to say. _________________ Nisi solum Iesum
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Archbishop Ranjith of CDW on Motu Proprio
Sed Contra wrote:
Still wondering what the Archbishop is getting at here:
Quote:
The banalisation of the eternal mysteries of the liturgy, achieved and justified by some liturgists, is now creating a growing demand to abandon altogether the earthly aspects and enter a phase of marked mysticism.
Seems to me like he's saying: "The hippies screwed everything up so bad, but the people are finally waking up from their coma and demanding an end to the hand-holding, self-celebrating nonsense and a return to the sacred celebration of the Mass of All Time."
_________________ Uni trinoque Domino, Sit sempiterna gloria!
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Ranjith
et cum spirit 220 wrote:
ecumenicaltraddie wrote:
et cum spirit 220 wrote:
Quote:
"...above all of the Novus Ordo."
The most telling words in the interview. This fellow is not to be trusted.
OK. Tell that Father Schmidberger then. He had nearly glowing accounts of Archbishop Ranjith.
If we can't trust the SSPX, then whom do we trust? Just certain priests of the SSPX?
Why do you take Fr. Schmidberger as gospel? Because you agree with him? I would suspect that you would get different answers from different priests in any order. What does Bsp. Fellay say? His is the only opinion that really carries weight.
Was Fr. Schmidberger not the immediate HAND PICKED Superior General of the SSPX? It seems his opinion on things might more closely correspond with that of Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Fellay than those of other SSPX priests and bishops who don't seem to be as "in line" with the leadership of the SSPX.
Regardless of his current status, it can be assured that Father Schmidberger is in on what is happening with relations with the Vatican.
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Ranjith
ecumenicaltraddie wrote:
et cum spirit 220 wrote:
ecumenicaltraddie wrote:
et cum spirit 220 wrote:
Quote:
"...above all of the Novus Ordo."
The most telling words in the interview. This fellow is not to be trusted.
OK. Tell that Father Schmidberger then. He had nearly glowing accounts of Archbishop Ranjith.
If we can't trust the SSPX, then whom do we trust? Just certain priests of the SSPX?
Why do you take Fr. Schmidberger as gospel? Because you agree with him? I would suspect that you would get different answers from different priests in any order. What does Bsp. Fellay say? His is the only opinion that really carries weight.
Was Fr. Schmidberger not the immediate HAND PICKED Superior General of the SSPX? It seems his opinion on things might more closely correspond with that of Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Fellay than those of other SSPX priests and bishops who don't seem to be as "in line" with the leadership of the SSPX.
Regardless of his current status, it can be assured that Father Schmidberger is in on what is happening with relations with the Vatican.
How many years ago was that? You better update your Rolodex:
Bishop Bernard Fellay - Superior General
Fr. Niklaus Pfluger - First Assistant
Fr. Alain Nely - Second Assistant
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Ranjith
et cum spirit 220 wrote:
ecumenicaltraddie wrote:
et cum spirit 220 wrote:
ecumenicaltraddie wrote:
et cum spirit 220 wrote:
Quote:
"...above all of the Novus Ordo."
The most telling words in the interview. This fellow is not to be trusted.
OK. Tell that Father Schmidberger then. He had nearly glowing accounts of Archbishop Ranjith.
If we can't trust the SSPX, then whom do we trust? Just certain priests of the SSPX?
Why do you take Fr. Schmidberger as gospel? Because you agree with him? I would suspect that you would get different answers from different priests in any order. What does Bsp. Fellay say? His is the only opinion that really carries weight.
Was Fr. Schmidberger not the immediate HAND PICKED Superior General of the SSPX? It seems his opinion on things might more closely correspond with that of Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Fellay than those of other SSPX priests and bishops who don't seem to be as "in line" with the leadership of the SSPX.
Regardless of his current status, it can be assured that Father Schmidberger is in on what is happening with relations with the Vatican.
How many years ago was that? You better update your Rolodex:
Bishop Bernard Fellay - Superior General
Fr. Niklaus Pfluger - First Assistant
Fr. Alain Nely - Second Assistant
I see. So the current "thinking" of the "authentic magisterium" of the SSPX ebbs and flows with the tide of who is in charge? Is that what you are saying?
"Fr. Schmidberger doesn't know what he is talking about" is what I hear you saying.
So if we cannot trust SSPX priests who were personally recommended by Archbishop Lefebvre as the first Superior General, whom can we trust?
Do you have any evidence that Fr. Schmidberger's publicly published remarks regarding Archbishop Ranjith are disputed by the current SSPX leadership?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bishop Fellay have Fr. Schmidberger accompany him when they met the Pope in August 2005?
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Archbishop Ranjith of CDW on Motu Proprio
TradPGH wrote:
Sed Contra wrote:
Still wondering what the Archbishop is getting at here:
Quote:
The banalisation of the eternal mysteries of the liturgy, achieved and justified by some liturgists, is now creating a growing demand to abandon altogether the earthly aspects and enter a phase of marked mysticism.
Seems to me like he's saying: "The hippies screwed everything up so bad, but the people are finally waking up from their coma and demanding an end to the hand-holding, self-celebrating nonsense and a return to the sacred celebration of the Mass of All Time."
No, that's not what he's saying. He's saying that "the growing demand to abandon altogether the earthly aspects and enter a phase of marked mysticism" is an extreme to be avoided. What exactly is he talking about? Does anyone have an idea? I'm mystified by the Archbishop's ambiguous statement. _________________ Nisi solum Iesum
You'll never hear a Vatican official saying anything bad about the NO. Yet Bishop Fellay says that privately Vatican officials have told him that the NO will be dead in a generation (and he says he's thinking more about two generations - a more realistic opinion IMO).
You don't really expect Archbishop Ranjith, who will most likely become the Prefect for that Congregation and thus a Cardinal (Card. Arinze will become 75 on Nov. 1), to openly slam the NO.
Wouldn't it be nice if a successor to the apostles could, just once in a way, HONESTLY speak his mind? Wouldn't it?
You'll never hear a Vatican official saying anything bad about the NO. Yet Bishop Fellay says that privately Vatican officials have told him that the NO will be dead in a generation (and he says he's thinking more about two generations - a more realistic opinion IMO).
You don't really expect Archbishop Ranjith, who will most likely become the Prefect for that Congregation and thus a Cardinal (Card. Arinze will become 75 on Nov. 1), to openly slam the NO.
Wouldn't it be nice if a successor to the apostles could, just once in a way, HONESTLY speak his mind? Wouldn't it?
Ranjith in private (if we can believe one man's report):
Quote:
We must work on this, and there is no doubt that the Pope has to set free the true Catholic Mass for everyoneI am going now to Rome where I will have my private chapel. I have just taken care to get a Missal of St. Pius V to celebrate Mass as it should be.
Ranjith in public:
Quote:
I am certain that above all the bishops, who at the moment of assuming their episcopal ministry have professed their complete loyalty and obedience to the Supreme Pontiff, will accept this decision with sentiments of generous collaboration and will safeguard the faithful implementation of the instructions of the Motu Proprio in the manner in which it is assigned to them, respecting the specific identities of the two manners of celebrating.
A sane sense of equilibrium between the two aspects, i.e. the descendent and the ascendent, as well as a true appreciation of the eternal value of what truly happens in the liturgy, is important. The constant clarifications of Pope Benedict on the true nature of the liturgy are indications for the Church and above all for the bishops and the clergy about that necessary equilibrium. Without such an attitude one risks falling into superficiality and formalism on one side, and on the other side into a spiritualism that does not inspire to make Christian choices in life.
Just what is he talking about??? _________________ Nisi solum Iesum
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Archbishop Ranjith of CDW on Motu Proprio
Sed Contra wrote:
TradPGH wrote:
Sed Contra wrote:
Still wondering what the Archbishop is getting at here:
Quote:
The banalisation of the eternal mysteries of the liturgy, achieved and justified by some liturgists, is now creating a growing demand to abandon altogether the earthly aspects and enter a phase of marked mysticism.
Seems to me like he's saying: "The hippies screwed everything up so bad, but the people are finally waking up from their coma and demanding an end to the hand-holding, self-celebrating nonsense and a return to the sacred celebration of the Mass of All Time."
No, that's not what he's saying. He's saying that "the growing demand to abandon altogether the earthly aspects and enter a phase of marked mysticism" is an extreme to be avoided. What exactly is he talking about? Does anyone have an idea? I'm mystified by the Archbishop's ambiguous statement.
OK, so you're wondering what he means, but then you're sure what he means. And then you're still wondering what he means. Gotcha. _________________ Uni trinoque Domino, Sit sempiterna gloria!
The most telling words in the interview. This fellow is not to be trusted.
OK. Tell that Father Schmidberger then. He had nearly glowing accounts of Archbishop Ranjith.
If we can't trust the SSPX, then whom do we trust? Just certain priests of the SSPX?
Why do you take Fr. Schmidberger as gospel? Because you agree with him? I would suspect that you would get different answers from different priests in any order. What does Bsp. Fellay say? His is the only opinion that really carries weight.
Was Fr. Schmidberger not the immediate HAND PICKED Superior General of the SSPX? It seems his opinion on things might more closely correspond with that of Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Fellay than those of other SSPX priests and bishops who don't seem to be as "in line" with the leadership of the SSPX.
Regardless of his current status, it can be assured that Father Schmidberger is in on what is happening with relations with the Vatican.
How many years ago was that? You better update your Rolodex:
Bishop Bernard Fellay - Superior General
Fr. Niklaus Pfluger - First Assistant
Fr. Alain Nely - Second Assistant
I see. So the current "thinking" of the "authentic magisterium" of the SSPX ebbs and flows with the tide of who is in charge? Is that what you are saying?
"Fr. Schmidberger doesn't know what he is talking about" is what I hear you saying.
So if we cannot trust SSPX priests who were personally recommended by Archbishop Lefebvre as the first Superior General, whom can we trust?
Do you have any evidence that Fr. Schmidberger's publicly published remarks regarding Archbishop Ranjith are disputed by the current SSPX leadership?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bishop Fellay have Fr. Schmidberger accompany him when they met the Pope in August 2005?
I didn't say anything about trusting Fr. Schmidberger. I just disagree with his personal opinion regarding absp. Ranjith. When you're updating that Rolodex, you might also want to brush up on your Church heirarchy. As far as I know, the SSPX doesn't have a Magisterium. And I must have missed that press release that said Fr. Schmidberger was named official spokesman for the Society. Do you have a link for that?
OK, so you're wondering what he means, but then you're sure what he means. And then you're still wondering what he means. Gotcha.
It's clear enough what he doesn't mean; that much is obvious from the text. It is far from clear what he does mean.
Again:
Quote:
The banalisation of the eternal mysteries of the liturgy, achieved and justified by some liturgists, is now creating a growing demand to abandon altogether the earthly aspects and enter a phase of marked mysticism.[Do you see, the Archbishop sees this as a negative.] A sane sense of equilibrium between the two aspects, i.e. the descendent and the ascendent, as well as a true appreciation of the eternal value of what truly happens in the liturgy, is important. The constant clarifications of Pope Benedict on the true nature of the liturgy are indications for the Church and above all for the bishops and the clergy about that necessary equilibrium. Without such an attitude one risks falling into superficiality and formalism on one side, and on the other side into a spiritualism that does not inspire to make Christian choices in life.
So what does he mean??? Care to give it a try? Anyone??? _________________ Nisi solum Iesum
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