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servitium · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 7809

Ave Maria University to hold seder meal after Holy Thursday Mass

April 4, 2007

In a letter inviting staff, students and faculty to an on campus seder meal to be held directly after the Holy Thursday Mass, Chaplain Richard Garrity refers to the last supper as "a Passover meal."

Below are the two emails sent to Staff, students and faculty at Ave Maria. The text is verbatim and the layout and design have been reproduced as closely as possible.

From: Chaplain's Office
Sent: Tue 4/3/2007 11:16 AM
To: FLA-Students; Fla-Staff; Fla-Faculty
Subject: SEDER MEAL SIGN UP TODAY!

Seder Meal

Holy Thursday, April 5, 2007

8 pm in the Ark Cafeteria

Suggested Donation:

Faculty/Staff: ($7) Students ($5) Children ($3)

RSVP Student Life Desk

NO LATER THAN TOMORROW
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 4 BY 5:00PM

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From: Chaplain's Office
Sent: Tue 4/3/2007 11:27 AM
To: FLA-Students; Fla-Faculty; Fla-Staff
Subject: HOLY THURSDAY

Subject: Holy Thursday Seder Meal

Dear Ave Maria Community,

After the Holy Thursday Mass, April 5, at 8pm, there will be a Seder Meal in the Ark of the Covenant Cafeteria. The invitation is limited to Ave Maria Students, Faculty, Staff, and their families. This Seder Meal will be a Christianized celebration of the Passover meal Christ ate throughout his life and for the last time with the apostles in the upper room. This is NOT a Communion service, nor is it meant to be. We are remembering the Jewish tradition so that we can grow closer to the Jewish Carpenter who gives his life for our salvation.

A full meal is incorporated into the celebration in addition to the ritual foods eaten. Students on the meal plan can eat the Seder meal as their Thursday night dinner. Faculty, Staff, & Families are asked for a free-will-offering of $5 per adult and $3 per child to help defer the cost.

Please RSVP outside Student Life in the Ark BY WEDNESDAY, APRIL 4, 2007.

Parents: When you sign up, please include the name of your youngest child that could read the "four questions" in the Seder Meal. A copy of what he/she would be reading is below. Traditionally, this part is given to the youngest attendee.

Any questions/comments, please see Ruth Moses or Donna Rittereiser in the Chaplainâ€™s office. Thank you.

The Four Questions:

Question #1
Why is this night different from all other nights? On all other nights, we eat either leavened or unleavened bread. Why, on this night, do we eat only unleavened bread?

Question #2
On all other nights we eat all kinds of herbs. Why, on this night, do we eat especially bitter herbs?

Question #3
On all other nights we do not dip herbs in any condiment.
Why, on this night, do we dip them in salt water and haroses?

Question #4
On all other nights, we eat without special festivities.
Why, on this night, do we hold this Passover service?

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This Seder Meal will be a Christianized celebration of the Passover meal Christ ate throughout his life and for the last time with the apostles in the upper room... We are remembering the Jewish tradition so that we can grow closer to the Jewish Carpenter who gives his life for our salvation.[/

Father perhaps needs some time back in seminary.

Christ represents the Passover lamb for us all. He was the Lamb of God, his sacrifice rendered the Jewish custom of Passover moot. Why does he reckon that Catholics haven't practiced Passover or sacrifice over the last 2,000 years? If as Fr. Garrity alludes that we should partake in Jewish customs because Christ once did, would he also have us going to Synagogue or ritually sacrificing Passover lambs?

It's striking how when Father refers to the last supper, when Christ instituted the Eucharist, as a "Passover Meal" he states that "we are remembering the Jewish tradition."

Perhaps Garrity is unaware that "we" are doing nothing less than practicing a modern Jewish custom after the Holy Thursday Mass at AMU, and there's nothing "Christianized" about it, right down to the four questions. He even refers to the food as "ritual food." Why does Father suppose any Catholic should be "remembering Jewish tradition" on one of the most sacred days of the year to Catholics, Holy Thursday?

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servitium · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 7809

I got those running AMU to pose for a pic to go with the article:

It's one thing after another with this "orthodox" university.

Barbara · Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject:

servitium · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 7809

Being from New York, I don't know whats worse; eating a Dominos pizza or Jewish "ritual food."

HallnOates · † Joined: 08 Aug 2005 Posts: 4477

I would puke, but my stomach is bone dry.

Serv,

What about that statement 2 students were forced to sign concerning the Jews?????

servitium · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 7809

Deacon Augustine · † Joined: 12 Mar 2005 Posts: 1324 Location: England

The Last Supper was a Passover meal but it was the LAST Passover meal according to the rites of the Jews.

IIRC both Nicea I and Florence pronounced anathemas on Christians who continued to celebrate the festivals of the Jews. Maybe someone out there has the references.

How can anybody see the need to attend a seder unless they are totally ignorant about the true Paschal Sacrifice which rendered obsolete all the sacrifices it fulfilled?

sgnofcross · Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject:

sgnofcross · Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject:

Deacon Augustine · † Joined: 12 Mar 2005 Posts: 1324 Location: England

GratiaPlena · Joined: 27 Mar 2007 Posts: 47 Location: Ave Maria, FL

[Technical note: Serv, I think it is Fr. Robert Garrity, not Richard]

Not to defend Fr. Garrity, but this has been done yearly since before he came to campus.

There was only one sacrificial Passover Meal in the OT that caused the Angel of Death to pass over their doors, all the others up to the Last Supper were just being obedient to God: Exodus 12:14 "And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever." Jesus kept to this even until the Last Supper - where of course he instituted the Eucharist.

AMU is a teaching institution, it's good to teach Passover (not actually celebrate it) so that the parallels between the lamb and the Lamb, mortal life and Everlasting Life, can be understood. I agree Fr. went overboard with his verbiage, but I think your trying to make a mountain out of this one.

-GratiaPlena.
_________________
John8:7

Somerset '76 · Joined: 22 Aug 2006 Posts: 428

If there's gefilte fish at this damned thing, then it's more than just indulgence in a historical curiosity for its own sake.

I sense the real point in the postconciliar interest in these "Seder suppers" is to make our Holy Week less unpalatable to the Jews. So it's not an act of false worship per se but rather an unseemly ecumenical gesture, which is almost as bad.

Mariamante_ · Joined: 18 Jan 2007 Posts: 69

Oh Boy, I have seen so many Seder Meal signs posted at N.O. Catholic churches. In fact there is one tonight at the N.O. church down the street. I was thinking about a silent rosary protest, surely they wouldn't kick catholics praying the rosary out of a catholic church. I'm not sure though maybe the best thing would be to pray silently at home. God willing some good will arise from this, maybe it will open more blind eyes to be aware of the crisis in the church.
_________________
Ostende nobis Domine, misericordiam tuam

servitium · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 7809

sgnofcross · Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject:

ad glorium · Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:10 pm Post subject:

[quote="Mariamante_"] I was thinking about a silent rosary protest, surely they wouldn't kick catholics praying the rosary out of a catholic church. quote]

Hate to bust your bubble on this one but a while back in Chicago I believe a NO church was holding a Buddhist prayer service and some conservative (conservative mind you not trad) parishioners did this very thing. Guess what, the priest kicked them out for being intolerant. These were Buddhists too not Jews the Vatican is cozying up so much with Jews it is revolting, so I would assume yes you would be shown the door.

VL · Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Posts: 1147 Location: Toronto

ghebreyesus · † Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 789

Christ celebrated Passover on Thursday. But from my understanding, Passover is celebrated by Jews today on Friday.

dixietrad · Joined: 22 Jan 2007 Posts: 1487 Location: mississippi

I am confused about this seder meal stuff is this the original passover meal that Jesus would have celebrated or some Christ denyiong thing from the Talmud.

ad glorium · Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject:

I believe it comes from the Talmud and is NOT the original.

salva_veritate · Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Posts: 36 Location: Kansas

They're not alone--there's one scheduled at Benedictine College in KS too...

ghebreyesus · † Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 789

servitium · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 7809

What Are The Four Questions Known As In Hebrew?

The Four Questions are collectively known as "Ma Nishtana" (alternate spellings into English from transliterated Hebrew: Mah Nishtanah, Ma Nishtanah, or Mah Nishtana). While The Four Questions are known as Ma Nishtana in Hebrew, Ma Nishtana literally means "What is different" or "How is it different" in Hebrew, in reference to how and why the evening when Passover begins is different from all other evenings of the year.

Who Recites The Four Questions At The Passover Seder Table?

Traditionally given to the youngest person at the seder table (usually the youngest son) to read aloud, the Four Questions are actually one question plus four clauses each of which are a short but complete overview of the story of Passover as told in the Passover Haggadah, or Book of Passover, which is given to each person at the table. The four clauses or answers illustrate the uniqueness of the Passover holiday as compared to other times of the year. A variation of this structure (one question, four answers) involved creating a question for each clause in addition to the main question, hence the main question plus the Four Questions.

Where does the formula for the Four Questions come from? (Drum roll, please! I hope you have a good imagination.)

The answer is: the Mishna of the Talmud (Pesachim 10:4) gives a formula of four questions which are asked by the child to the father. The father then replies to the child "according to the child's intelligence".

servitium · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 7809

Now isn't that special?

DX · Joined: 04 Apr 2007 Posts: 30

To ghebreyesus: Passover actually began Tuesday, April 3, this year. The date is determined by the Jewish calendar, and it begins on various days of the week depending on the year.

sgnofcross · Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:32 pm Post subject:

Just for grins and to bring a laugh.

April 4: Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey circus clown, comforts an elephant after her handler had to remove an entire box
of matzo from her mouth during a special feeding.

Aardvark · Joined: 05 Nov 2006 Posts: 667

I have Jewish friends, but their faith and traditions are not mine. Likewise, our faith and traditions are not theirs. The so-called "Catholic" colleges don't seem to grasp this very simple concept. Just as Brandeis will not be holding a Pedilavium tomorrow or serving hot cross buns or organizing an Easter egg, it's inappropriate for AMU or any other "Catholic" school to be sponsoring a seder.

servitium · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 7809

Ave Maria is quickly becoming known across the nation as an orthodox Catholic university, according to plans forged by Monaghan, a devout traditional Catholic, and his team of like-minded associates. - Naples News October 21, 2003

Domino's Pizza magnate Tom Monaghan is using a large slice of his fortune to build a Catholic university in southwest Florida, exciting conservative Catholics with his dream of an academically first-class institution that is also solidly orthodox.- Washington Post, March 25, 2007

Gee, an "orthodox" Catholic university founded by a "devout traditional Catholic and his team of like-minded assosiates" having young Catholic children perform Jewish talmudic rituals immediately following Mass on Holy Thursday.

sgnofcross · Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:52 pm Post subject:

Animus Conscientia · Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Posts: 14

I attended a seder this past Monday and found it an immensely enjoyable experience, a ritual filled with much wisdom and historical significance. One does not have to be Jewish to see this. I applaud Ave Maria for including this in their program.

sgnofcross · Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:10 pm Post subject:

fizmath · Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject:

Will AMU also sacrifice animals just like they did back in OT days?

VL · Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Posts: 1147 Location: Toronto

Animus Conscientia · Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Posts: 14

totustuusmaria · Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject:

My family always celebrated what we called a "seder meal" on Easter Sunday. The prayers going with it were very Christian and very beautiful and it was my favorite family time of the year when I was growing up.

Here's a quick synopsis of what it was like:

It began with the family praying together. Then Dad would explain all the symbols the Jews used at the Seder meal, how they related to the escape from Egypt, and how they were fulfilled in Jesus Christ. After that Mom would light the candle saying:

sgnofcross · Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject:

Animus Conscientia · Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Posts: 14

Besides, why is it a bad thing for Catholics to see a modern manifestation of this ancient tradition that Jesus himself participated in? Maybe this is the anthropologist in me coming out, but I find participating in rituals of other faiths and belief systems very rewarding, because it exposes you to different ways in which people conceive of the world and draw meaning from ritual and historical practice.

Animus Conscientia · Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Posts: 14

sgnofcross · Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject:

sgnofcross · Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject:

totustuusmaria · Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:12 pm Post subject:

servitium · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 7809

kstewskis · † Joined: 26 Jun 2005 Posts: 1870 Location: AZ

Michael Solimanto · † Joined: 07 Aug 2005 Posts: 1723

Sed Contra · Joined: 03 Apr 2007 Posts: 2065

Michael Solimanto · † Joined: 07 Aug 2005 Posts: 1723

When the Church uses traditions from the Jews it is to show the perfection in the New Testament. Judaizing the Catholic faith is something which was condemned in Florence. I cannot see how Catholics can use something explicitly made in reference to Exodus, using Jewish prayers in a "Catholic" fashion, and confusing the anamnesis which was to pre-figure Calvary. It's modern theology wrapped up to look and feel Catholic and Jewish. It's very dangerous.

Up until the prayer used the line "Had he given us the temple and not sent us his Son, the messiah" it's 100% an anemnesis to Exodus. We do not attempt to sanitize any Jewish elements of the faith into the Catholic faith unless it is a direct prayer to the glory of God, or a pre-figuration of the perfection of the Old Testament to the New in Our Blessed Lord.

Matthaei · Joined: 05 Mar 2005 Posts: 2088 Location: L.A.

Matthaei · Joined: 05 Mar 2005 Posts: 2088 Location: L.A.

Dionysius · Joined: 29 Jun 2006 Posts: 1260

The temple veil was rent in two from top to bottom upon the death of Our Lord putting an end to Old Covenant practices forever. AMU is a Catholic University, not a Yeshiva. They should stop giving credence to that which is no longer pleasing to God.

ad glorium · Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:47 am Post subject:

[quote="Dionysius"]The temple veil was rent in two from top to bottom upon the death of Our Lord putting an end to Old Covenant practices forever. AMU is a Catholic University, not a Yeshiva. They should stop giving credence to that which is no longer pleasing to God.[/quote]