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Kopp
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 Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:30 am Post subject: Bishop Fellay's response to Bishop Williamson interview |
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Posted at the Remnant:
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And now...
A few words from our sponsors
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:30 am Post subject: Advertisement |
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john6:54
Joined: 17 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:43 am Post subject: |
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Clarity and precision without throwing the H.E. Bishop Williamson under the bus.
God bless H.E. Bishop Fellay 
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salus
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| He should have emphasized converting SECULAR STATE LUTHERANS back to the true CATHOLIC FAITH, instead of just limiting their apostolate to getting the Traditional Sacraments to Swedish Catholics.....P.S.---- I would also consider converting the "Catholic" Swedish Novus Ordo bunch back to the faith. |
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phaley
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:01 pm Post subject: Bishop Fellay is in charge. |
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What this says to me, and I hope to the Holy See, is that Bishop Fellay is the General Superior of the FSSPX and no one else. The other bishops may well be of the same mind as Fellay in doctrine and dogma but only he can speak for the Society. Prudence would dictate the other bishops would not speak to the media during this critical time.
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Petertherock
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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Great letter by Bishop Fellay!!
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Darryl
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penitent99
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| john6:54 wrote: | Clarity and precision without throwing the H.E. Bishop Williamson under the bus.
God bless H.E. Bishop Fellay |
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St. Elmo
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| salus wrote: | | He should have emphasized converting SECULAR STATE LUTHERANS back to the true CATHOLIC FAITH, instead of just limiting their apostolate to getting the Traditional Sacraments to Swedish Catholics.....P.S.---- I would also consider converting the "Catholic" Swedish Novus Ordo bunch back to the faith. |
The Lutherans will be an easier sell. 
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Pax Vobiscum
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| St. Elmo wrote: | | salus wrote: | | He should have emphasized converting SECULAR STATE LUTHERANS back to the true CATHOLIC FAITH, instead of just limiting their apostolate to getting the Traditional Sacraments to Swedish Catholics.....P.S.---- I would also consider converting the "Catholic" Swedish Novus Ordo bunch back to the faith. |
The Lutherans will be an easier sell. |
They're less anti-Catholic. |
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gpmtrad
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| penitent99 wrote: | | john6:54 wrote: | Clarity and precision without throwing the H.E. Bishop Williamson under the bus.
God bless H.E. Bishop Fellay |
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Now, folks, THAT'S some REAL bishop-ing! Man, oh man! I hope that terse, lucid message sent a surge of electricity up and down the spines of churchmen everywhere, most especially in Rome.
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SLCFranciscan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| gpmtrad wrote: | | penitent99 wrote: | | john6:54 wrote: | Clarity and precision without throwing the H.E. Bishop Williamson under the bus.
God bless H.E. Bishop Fellay |
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Now, folks, THAT'S some REAL bishop-ing! Man, oh man! I hope that terse, lucid message sent a surge of electricity up and down the spines of churchmen everywhere, most especially in Rome. |
Bishop Fellay would be a great pope some day! |
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pbax
Joined: 26 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:15 am Post subject: Bishop Fellay's response to Bishop Williamsons interview |
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Has anyone checked if Bishop Fellay actually wrote this letter.
Bishop Williamson was on Swedish TV on All Souls Day yet Bishop Fellay 'wrote' the letter on the 21st of January stating that it was going to air 'this evening'.
The style of writing to me does not appear to match his style of writing.
It seems to me that again someone is trying to split the SSPX and its parishioners. Anyone that knows the SSPX knew about Bishop Williamsons views, even Bishop Fellay, so if he had a problem he would have said something earlier.
Just my personal view. |
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pbax
Joined: 26 Apr 2008
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:53 am Post subject: Re: Bishop Fellay's response to Bishop Williamsons interview |
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Bishop Williamson was on Swedish TV on All Souls Day yet Bishop Fellay 'wrote' the letter on the 21st of January stating that it was going to air 'this evening'.
Sorry I meant to write All Saints Day not All Souls Day |
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Paulus
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 184
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:18 am Post subject: Re: Bishop Fellay's response to Bishop Williamsons interview |
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| pbax wrote: | Has anyone checked if Bishop Fellay actually wrote this letter.
Bishop Williamson was on Swedish TV on All Souls Day yet Bishop Fellay 'wrote' the letter on the 21st of January stating that it was going to air 'this evening'.
The style of writing to me does not appear to match his style of writing.
It seems to me that again someone is trying to split the SSPX and its parishioners. Anyone that knows the SSPX knew about Bishop Williamsons views, even Bishop Fellay, so if he had a problem he would have said something earlier.
Just my personal view. |
Are you saying SVT could only air the interview once?
Is the Remnant a member of the "guilty party" who is trying to split SSPX?
I hope you are not listening to M.E. Morrison aka Mr. Moderator.
A simple phone call or email to the Remnant asking for the source of the letter in question should not be too difficult.
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Hammer of heretics
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: |
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Brilliant letter!!!
| Quote: | | Bishop Fellay would be a great pope some day! |
I agree. I hope he is pope soon. He would clean up the mess in the Church overnight. He would also tactfully and charitably put the Jews in their place and not allow them to dictate Church prayers and Church policies (See related Angelqueen thread http://angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23691) |
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Trisha
Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 13
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for this information.
Bishop Fellay is a wonderful man and leader. So glad to hear him deal with Bp Williamson's comments gracefully and thoroughly.
Now will someone tell Bp Williamson to keep his fanatical viewpoints to himself for the sake of the rest of us??
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Iudaeus
Joined: 26 Jan 2009
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:20 am Post subject: Bishop Williamson |
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Trisha,
Bishop Williamson has been repeating his mad comments on this and other subjects for a very long time; it´s not the first time, if you care to read his monthly letters and his blog.
He even quotes freely from the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" in the latter.
How can a man that is considered to be intelligent NOT know the real history of that forgery ?
How can a man that is considered to be intelligent DARE to say that women should not pursue higher education ?
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DCXIII
Joined: 18 Jul 2008
Posts: 388
Location: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Bishop Williamson |
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| Iudaeus wrote: | Trisha,
Bishop Williamson has been repeating his mad comments on this and other subjects for a very long time; it´s not the first time, if you care to read his monthly letters and his blog.
He even quotes freely from the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" in the latter.
How can a man that is considered to be intelligent NOT know the real history of that forgery ?
How can a man that is considered to be intelligent DARE to say that women should not pursue higher education ?
Iudaeus |
The writer of the above post shouldn't be in this forum. Period. |
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Dino
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| I agree with Iudaeus. Williamson does harm to the cause of the SSPX and tradition by going well outside his area of expertise, making statements that are unnecessary and very difficult for the rest of us to defend. Why should we have to deal with Leuchter and the Protocols? We'll never get to traditional morals and liturgy. He should be silenced or marginalized. |
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justinmartyr
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 106
Location: New York, N.Y.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| I agree with Iudaeus as well. There are plenty of trads who don't care to join the Flat Earth Society, even as oblates. |
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cantatedomino
Joined: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 2838
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| Dino wrote: | | I agree with Iudaeus. Williamson does harm to the cause of the SSPX and tradition by going well outside his area of expertise, making statements that are unnecessary and very difficult for the rest of us to defend. Why should we have to deal with Leuchter and the Protocols? We'll never get to traditional morals and liturgy. He should be silenced or marginalized. |
I'm going to expose an intellectual error and a false presupposition employed here ad nauseum. It goes like this:
History, and the accuracy of the historical record, are outside the purview and authority of an ecclesiastic.
Besides being self-evidently false to any person still capable of reasoning, the patent illogicity of this silly idea is admirably demonstrated by encyclical after encyclical of the pre-conciliar popes, which not only teach doctrine, but apply it to historical circumstances. These encyclicals consistently lay out historical facts and inoculate against historical revisionism and propaganda. I literally have to go to these encyclicals to get real history, because it's almost impossible to find it anywhere else. My understanding of the errors of modernity and of lies passing as history comes almost entirely from churchmen. I'd be lost without my clerical guides.
Furthermore, where would be our Catholic identity if we did not have, in the Martyrology and in the vast archives of the Vatican, the seminaries, and religious houses, a veritable treasure of accurate histories, both ecclesiastic and secular, upon which is built up our entire understanding of ourselves in this vale of tears? Contained in such histories are lessons for the future, guidance for the present, a link to the authentic past, and the fodder for an authoritative analysis of Scriptural prophecies.
Try again. Your a priori errors and your false paradigm are showing. |
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Pete Vere
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Bishop Fellay's response to Bishop Williamsons interview |
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| pbax wrote: | | Has anyone checked if Bishop Fellay actually wrote this letter. |
Given all that has been going on, the high-profile controversy Bishop Williamson has created in the media, and the controversy Bishop Fellay's response would cause, I highly doubt Michael Matt would run this letter without first authenticating its source. That being said, one can easily do so by contacting the FSSPX's mother house.
| Quote: | | [...] yet Bishop Fellay 'wrote' the letter on the 21st of January stating that it was going to air 'this evening'. The style of writing to me does not appear to match his style of writing. |
Probably because it is a translation, or Bishop Fellay entrusted the actual writing of the letter to a trusted assistant, or both. It doesn't matter. What matters is that the letter bears his signature, meaning he approved its publication under his name. Popes, Patriarchs, Cardinals, Bishops and Superior Generals do this all the time. Why should Bishop Fellay be any different?
Especially when one looks at the situation he is addressing. Count me among those put off by Bishop Williamson's statements questioning the Holocaust. In fact, I find Bishop Williamson's statements to be odious. Not only is the historical evidence plentiful (the Nazis kept impeccable records, which were captured by the Allies) but I have interviewed Allied soldiers of low ranks who participated in the liberation of Nazi concentration camps. The images of the Nazi inhumanity they encountered will stick with them for the rest of their lives. And it sticks with those of us who have heard their stories.
Which is all the more reason why Bishop Fellay needed to address Bishop Williamson's comments, the timing of which could not be more provocative. Here you have Rome lifting the excommunication, a major event in the history of the traditionalist movement, and it is being overshadowed in the international media by Bishop Williamson's belief in historical conspiracies.
Of course Bishop Fellay needed to address the situation. And he needed to do so using very precise language, while juggling several balls, in a language that is not his mother tongue. Thus entrusting the actual drafting of the letter to trusted assistants would seem like a prudent decision on Bishop Fellay's part.
On the other hand, he may have written it himself. |
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Iudaeus
Joined: 26 Jan 2009
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:10 am Post subject: Damage |
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Thank you for the ones who have understood my point.
By making these comments in public - to a TV station ! - Bishop Williamson has tremendously damaged the cause for which Traditional Catholics fight.
His words appeal only, and exclusively, to a fringe of lunatics that are certainly not the kind of people he should try to convince.
The worst are his "Letters", and his blog, which are in the INternet and are thus open for anyone, including journalists and others, to read and demolish Traditional Catholicism.
But maybe Bishop Williamson is not interested at all in any gestures from the Pope. Who knows ? Maybe he also doesn´t believe the Pope to be the Pope. |
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JuxtaCrucem
Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:15 am Post subject: |
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The interesting thing about the Protocols - wherever they come from - is that everything they say about objectives to degrade Christian nations utterly by primarily degrading their morality and their attachment to what the Church teaches, has since that time been unfolding with remarkable accuracy. So, if nothing else, the author must have had tremendous prophetic insight.
As to exaggerated claims about the Holocaust, even Jews have expressed their doubts. For example, Norman Finkelstein has written books on the matter - some years back, "The Holocaust Industry", and more recently "Beyond Chutzpah - on the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History". Worth pondering. |
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phaley
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Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 1912
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Damage |
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| Iudaeus wrote: | Thank you for the ones who have understood my point.
By making these comments in public - to a TV station ! - Bishop Williamson has tremendously damaged the cause for which Traditional Catholics fight.
His words appeal only, and exclusively, to a fringe of lunatics that are certainly not the kind of people he should try to convince.
The worst are his "Letters", and his blog, which are in the INternet and are thus open for anyone, including journalists and others, to read and demolish Traditional Catholicism.
But maybe Bishop Williamson is not interested at all in any gestures from the Pope. Who knows ? Maybe he also doesn´t believe the Pope to be the Pope. |
I would not judge Bishop Williamson the way you do and suggest that in trying to make people think he sometimes fails to achieve his objective. But I would hardly think him to be a BLEEP!
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Pre-Vatican II Catholic-16 yrs Catholic schooling. |
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pjj
Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 63
Location: Kraków, Poland
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:42 am Post subject: Re: Bishop Fellay's response to Bishop Williamsons interview |
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| Pete Vere wrote: | | the Nazis kept impeccable records, which were captured by the Allies |
1) No, they didn't. 2) Not all of them were captured.
On the webpage of Polish State Archives one can read:
| Quote: | Due to the fact that the SS personnel destroyed the bulk of the records of KL Auschwitz it is impossible to find out what the exact number of the prisoners was. In all 400,000 prisoners were registered in the camp of whom 50 per cent died. The majority of the victims were people who died in the gas chambers just after arriving at the camp and that is why they were not included in statistical data gathered by the SS.
According to the most reliable estimates at least 1,300,000 people were deported to KL Auschwitz of whom 1,100,000 were killed. The victims included almost 1,000,000 Jews, 70,000 Poles, 20,000 Gypsies 15,000 Russian POWs and 20,000 prisoners of other nationalities. |
http://www.archiwa.gov.pl/memory/sub_listakrajowa/index.php?fileid=021&va_lang=en
This is official. Emphasis mine.
| Pete Vere wrote: | | The images of the Nazi inhumanity they encountered will stick with them for the rest of their lives. |
I don't think any serious and honest revisionist puts in question Jewish sufferings during WWII. What they however do question is 1) exact number of Jewish victims (just six millions, not one less), 2) evidence for methods putatively used to kill Jews and, on top of this, 3) claimed absolute uniqueness of Jewish extermination.
(But there is one thing that has put me off in His Excellency's pronouncement: I find the 300K figure not only historically untrue, but also believe that serious revisionists claim it to be 5--10x higher.)
| Quote: | | And it sticks with those of us who have heard their stories. |
Undoubtedly these are horrific stories. However, reading other stories proved to be completely and utterly fictitious (Jerzy Kosinski, Binjamin Wilkomirski, recently Misha Defonseca) makes me cool down and stay more skeptical.
But this doesn't really matter. What do matter, however, is the sole fact that the criminalization of "Holocaust denial" is sought for by the same people, who's creed are Voltaire's words:
| Quote: | | I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. |
Yeah, whatever. |
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Trisha
Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 13
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: Bishop Williamson |
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| Iudaeus wrote: | Trisha,
Bishop Williamson has been repeating his mad comments on this and other subjects for a very long time; it´s not the first time, if you care to read his monthly letters and his blog.
He even quotes freely from the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" in the latter.
How can a man that is considered to be intelligent NOT know the real history of that forgery ?
How can a man that is considered to be intelligent DARE to say that women should not pursue higher education ?
Iudaeus |
I used to keep up with the letters until he finally broke the camel's back with his conspiracy theories about Sept 11. I thought things were beginning to be strange with his views on 'modesty and women' when mini skirts were more ladylike than pants....
I'm sure we agree, he's entitled to his personal opinions (even though it's beyond me how anyone with intelligence and common sense could believe as he does), but you'd think that there would be some consideration for the entire body of the Society and the faithful who partake SSPX sacraments.
The man needs to learn discretion.
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"If you judge people, you have no time to love them." |
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Trisha
Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 13
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| JuxtaCrucem wrote: | The interesting thing about the Protocols - wherever they come from - is that everything they say about objectives to degrade Christian nations utterly by primarily degrading their morality and their attachment to what the Church teaches, has since that time been unfolding with remarkable accuracy. So, if nothing else, the author must have had tremendous prophetic insight.
As to exaggerated claims about the Holocaust, even Jews have expressed their doubts. For example, Norman Finkelstein has written books on the matter - some years back, "The Holocaust Industry", and more recently "Beyond Chutzpah - on the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History". Worth pondering. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion
"The Protocols has been proven by respected international scholars, both Jewish and non-Jewish, to be a forgery,[1][2][3] a fraud[4][5] and a hoax,[6][7] as well as a clear case of plagiarism[8]. The original source has been clearly identified as an 1864 book by Maurice Joly entitled The Dialogue in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu, which was written as a satirical attack against the ambitions and methods of French Emperor Napoleon III.[9] In the book, Machiavelli represented Napoleon III, and described a series of steps that he intended to take to become ruler of the world. The Joly book was in turn based on material borrowed from a popular novel of the time by Eugčne Sue entitled The Mysteries of the People, in which those plotting to rule the world were the Jesuits instead of Napoleon III. Neither the Joly book nor the Sue book mentioned either Jews or Masons."
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"If you judge people, you have no time to love them." |
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Always Catholic
Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:17 pm Post subject: Bishop Fellay's response to the Bishop Williamson Interview |
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| My daughter was confirmed by Bishop Williamson, and I was fortunate to have served as an acolyte that day. My son, on the other hand, was confirmed by Patrick Zieman, former 'bshop' of Santa Rosa, CA (one of Mahoney's boys). Zieman was relieved of his duties after it was discovered he had a homosexual relationship with another 'priest'. Zieman also stole $15,000,000 from the diocese. His penalty was getting sent to Arizona where to this day he conducts retreats. So His Excellency Bishop Williamson has some strange beliefs. With my own ears, I heard NO priests deny there is a hell and Purgatory. With my own eyes I have seen desecration by NO priests, bishops and cardinals. I believe most on this site would be shocked to learn 10% of what current NO clergy believe regarding abortion, homosexuality, hell, sin, real presence, and anything else you care to add. Bishop Williamson isn't hiding anything. He has published letters and given sermons on his beliefs from day one. So he questions if 6,000,000 Jews were killed and the method of execution. In this area, he's a doubting Thomas. Let's go easy on him as we will need him for the titanic struggle on the horizom. |
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Dom
Joined: 03 Oct 2008
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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I have met people who denied or downplayed the Soviet Gulags, they believed that they were nothing more than American cold war propaganda used to inflame the people. According to modern standerds liberals can deny that 20 million died in the USSR, but one cannot say less than six million died. Is there a double standard?
PS. Hitler and the Nazis were evil, I think we all agree! |
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Dino
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| cantatedomino wrote: |
I'm going to expose an intellectual error and a false presupposition employed here ad nauseum. It goes like this:
History, and the accuracy of the historical record, are outside the purview and authority of an ecclesiastic.
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I did not say they were outside the purview of an ecclesiastic, I said they were outside the purview of non-historians. Same goes for forensic science. Bishop Williamson is not an historian, nor is he a forensic scientist. He has not consulted any serious historian or forensic scientist. The pre-conciliar popes, in stark contrast, either were themselves experts in any one particular area, or they consulted them--scholars with real credentials. |
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spikepaga
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 461
Location: Houston. TX
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: Bishop Williamson |
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| DCXIII wrote: | | Iudaeus wrote: | Trisha,
Bishop Williamson has been repeating his mad comments on this and other subjects for a very long time; it´s not the first time, if you care to read his monthly letters and his blog.
He even quotes freely from the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" in the latter.
How can a man that is considered to be intelligent NOT know the real history of that forgery ?
How can a man that is considered to be intelligent DARE to say that women should not pursue higher education ?
Iudaeus |
The writer of the above post shouldn't be in this forum. Period. |
Why?-Because he does not worship the Bishop and you do not agree with him?-So he must be banned, then?
I can not believe everytime the Bishop makes these comments you have people bending over backwards to excuse his actions (and in some instances going as far as affirming his "theories" as "truth")
Under normal circumstances, it really would not matter what he says or does, since we already have Cardinal Kasper, Mahony and God knows who else spewing crap every five minutes, but this is no ordinary Bishop and these are no ordinary times. This is one of the Bishops consecrated by Marcel Lefebvre. People hate them. They hate tradition. They want to destroy us. Yet you have Bishop Williamson prancing around-on the eve of the lifting of the excommunications-making totally irrelevant and unecessary comments. No one is asking him to compromise matters of Faith-But why go around giving ammo to the modernists-what does it prove? whom does it serve?-Perhaps it is time for His Lordship to limit himself to writing and talking on matters of faith-I pray he will do so-
At any rate Bishop Fellay has already said in an interview he finds it "deplorable" that the Bishops comments have been associated with views that the Societ does not spouse.
_________________
Pray for all SSPX Bishops to become Cardinals |
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Kopp
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Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 1232
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: Bishop Williamson |
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| spikepaga wrote: | Why?-Because he does not worship the Bishop and you do not agree with him?-So he must be banned, then?
I can not believe everytime the Bishop makes these comments you have people bending over backwards to excuse his actions (and in some instances going as far as affirming his "theories" as "truth")
At any rate Bishop Fellay has already said in an interview he finds it "deplorable" that the Bishops comments have been associated with views that the Society does not spouse. |
Amen.
Because of this controversy, the world is watching Bishop Williamson as well as AQ right now.
Unfortunately, this ain't either's finest moment, to say the least. |
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et cum spirit 220
Moderator
Joined: 15 Feb 2005
Posts: 6739
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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Once again, Dr. Kopp and I are of the same mind. One of us must be getting smarter. I don't think it's him
Enough of this. |
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