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Jews perplexed by change to Catholic catechism

 
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markjwyatt



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:06 am    Post subject: Jews perplexed by change to Catholic catechism Reply with quote


Jews perplexed by change to Catholic catechism

By Daniel Burke
Religion News Service via Washington Post
Saturday, September 13, 2008
Link to original


In catechisms, as in prisons, there are no insignificant sentences.

Every word of these handbooks is meant to clearly express the fundamentals of the faith. The Catholic Church, especially, places great emphasis on its catechism to help pass doctrine from one generation to the next.

So when 200 U.S. bishops voted this summer to delete a reference to the covenant between God and Moses in the "United States Catholic Catechism for Adults," some Jewish leaders were perplexed.

Pending Vatican approval, this sentence will be deleted from the text: "Thus the covenant that God made with the Jewish people through Moses remains eternally valid for them."

Bishops said too many Catholics seemed to misunderstand the covenant sentence, believing it meant Jews do not need Jesus to be saved.

"There was a concern that we were trying to say too much in too few words," said Washington Archbishop Donald Wuerl, who chairs the board that oversaw the new catechism. "When you get into an area of theological complexity, brevity doesn't always serve you well."

The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB), which published the catechism in 2006 with the Vatican's approval, says it's the first change to the new catechism, which took six years and three drafts to complete.

Jewish leaders, some of whom view the change in light of a recent flap over the Latin Mass and lingering resentments over "The Passion of the Christ," are perplexed by the excision.

In addition, a controversial Catholic apologist -- whose writings have been denounced by his bishop and whom the Southern Poverty Law Center has labeled a "rabid" anti-Semite -- is taking credit for the change.

The USCCB says the statement about the Moses covenant was not wrong, just ambiguous and misunderstood. The conference decided to replace it with a section from the older "Catechism of the Catholic Church" that quotes St. Paul's letter to the Romans:

"To the Jewish people, whom God first chose to hear his word, belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ."

That passage puzzles Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League. "Why take a very simple sentence and replace it with a very complicated paragraph?" he asked. "When did the Catholic Church decide that our covenant was finished?"

Alan Berger, a professor of Holocaust studies at Florida Atlantic University, called the change the latest "in a long line of mixed symbols. It's very troubling."

Deleting the sentence allows U.S. bishops to dodge the controversy, said Monsignor Daniel Kutys, executive director of evangelization and catechesis at the USCCB's committee on the catechism.

"Part of the decision was to skirt the issue rather than explain it," said Kutys.

The USCCB and individual bishops began receiving letters about the catechism in 2006, after a Pennsylvania man, Robert Sungenis, targeted the reference to Moses on the Web site of his Bellarmine Theological Forum, according to Kutys.

Sungenis, from State Line, Pa., said he wrote to the Vatican and met with officials from the bishops' conference. "I tried all the proper channels and I think it worked," said Sungenis, 53.

If the sentence were not deleted from the catechism, Sungenis said, it would "shake the faith" of lay Catholics by implying that people can be saved without believing in Jesus.

The amateur apologist -- Sungenis has a doctorate in religious studies from a British school without U.S. accreditation -- also asserts that "an anti-Christian, Jewish influence has infiltrated the Catholic Church at the very highest levels."

Sungenis's writings on Jews have been sharply criticized by fellow Catholics, who accuse him of anti-Semitism. His local bishop, Kevin Rhoades of Harrisburg, has demanded that Sungenis stop writing about Jews and made him stop using the word "Catholic" in his organization's name.

"I had hoped that he would cease from speaking or writing about Judaism and the Jewish people in a hostile, uncharitable, and un-Christian manner," Rhoades wrote to a former colleague of Sungenis last February.

Sungenis may have been the first to raise the issue, but he shouldn't be given credit for revising the catechism, said the USCCB's Kutys.

"It was changed, but not because of what he said," Kutys said. "People were misunderstanding it, and through that blog spreading that misunderstanding to other people."

The Moses covenant remains a tricky interfaith issue, say Catholic and Jewish theologians. On the one hand, God's promises to the Jews don't expire, according to the Bible. But Christians believe Jesus is the fulfillment of all God's covenants.

It's not just an academic debate, either. For centuries, the church persecuted and proselytized Jews for their supposed apostasy.

Generally, mainstream Catholics say God's covenant with Moses is still valid, but accepting Jesus is necessary for salvation; they haven't yet resolved those seemingly contradictory beliefs.

"We know what we want to say," said Eugene Fisher, former longtime head of the USCCB's Catholic-Jewish relations team, "but putting this in nice, neat language -- we're not there yet."



Archbishop Wuerl summarizes well the ambiguity in the passage that was recently amended by the bishops. Despite any short-term consternation about the change, in the long run authentic inter-religious dialogue is better served when such ambiguity is avoided.

My difficulty with this particular story is that it makes it sound like Robert Sungenis “led the charge” in pushing for a change in the Catechism, and that he was the first person to criticize the Catechism, which in its prior form he considered not only ambiguous, but heretical.

In reality, responsible Catholics have been interacting with Church authorities since the Catechism’s draft stage regarding the problematic wording of this sentence.

From my own experience as a Catholic leader, the recent grandstanding of Robert Sungenis--done to save face given other problems he’s had with his bishop--had no effect on the process. If anything, it would have served as a deterrent to the bishops, who would not want to give credibility to an apologist with a reputation for disseminating anti-Semitic propaganda.

Catholics can and must affirm that all salvation comes through Christ through the ministry of His one true Church, but such affirmation does not a require a harsh, condemnatory approach that alienates rather than welcomes our Jewish brethren.

Posted by Leon Suprenant at 9:09 pm


I think there is some misunderstanding as to what Robert Sungenis is saying. Basically, he is saying the Mosaic covenant is superseded. The spiritual dimension of the Abrahamic covenenant is still in place as the New Covenant with Jesus Christ, as John Paul II explained in his 1982 Sydney speech, and reaffirmed many times when he referred to the “covenant never revoked” (i.e., the Abrahamic as explained in 1982). Traditionally, the Mosaic covenant has been seen as superceded. This is the essence of Sungenis’ argument.

And it is Robert Sungenis who led the charge. I wrote on Leon Supernant’s blog that this was so, and he “moderated” the comment. My understanding is the same happened to Fr. Brian Harrison. Leon likes to have his say, but not let others do the same.

Posted by Mark at 11:44 am
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just give him his props - Sungenis did good...
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Foxman: "When did the Catholic Church decide that our covenant was finished?"
Catholics: When you killed the Messiah.
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scribe



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:02 pm    Post subject: Perplexed Jews Reply with quote

Why are these American Jews perplexed? Are they thick, or something? That provocative and silly sentence should never have appeared in the Catechism, because it clearly contradicts the plain words of Scripture, and any educated Jew who takes an interest in matters Catholic would know that as well as we AQ folk do. Personally, I think the Jews should get on with their own thing, and, when it comes to Catholicism, mind their own business.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Perplexed Jews Reply with quote

scribe wrote:
Why are these American Jews perplexed? Are they thick, or something? That provocative and silly sentence should never have appeared in the Catechism, because it clearly contradicts the plain words of Scripture, and any educated Jew who takes an interest in matters Catholic would know that as well as we AQ folk do. Personally, I think the Jews should get on with their own thing, and, when it comes to Catholicism, mind their own business.


The Jews are perplexed because Catholic Prelates, since you know what and when, have been preaching otherwise. By the behavior of the Kaspars over the years, the last thing they expect is Catholic teaching. I don't blame them. To them, this seems like an about face, and it is, thank the Good Lord.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ADL extrodinaire Abe Foxman wrote:
"When did the Catholic Church decide that our covenant was finished?"


Homer

D'oh!


The Cathlolic Church:

When Jesus Christ said "it is finished," while on the cross.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Perplexed Jews Reply with quote

scribe wrote:
Why are these American Jews perplexed? Are they thick, or something?


What? No, they are anything but thick, and they are anything but perplexed. It's rhetoric, it's Public Relations, er, Propoganda, plain and simple. Foxman isn't confused. He has his agenda, and if anybody appears too Catholic, his job is to slap the "anti-semite" label on him and make it stick. Period.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Perplexed Jews Reply with quote

charlesh wrote:
scribe wrote:
Why are these American Jews perplexed? Are they thick, or something?


What? No, they are anything but thick, and they are anything but perplexed. It's rhetoric, it's Public Relations, er, Propoganda, plain and simple. Foxman isn't confused. He has his agenda, and if anybody appears too Catholic, his job is to slap the "anti-semite" label on him and make it stick. Period.


Absolutely correct! Fr. Feeney laid the foundation which has been "ecumenized" or chiseled at ever since. You can publicly excoriate Catholicism, but leave the Jews and Blacks alone in this country.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How very sad this development, Abe Foxhole is so sad, being himself saved from the camps by those evil antisemitic Pro Perfidis Iudaeis praying Polish Kraków and Lodz Roman Catholics.... I feel so sorry for this poor little Abe..... Wave
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:36 am    Post subject: Re: Jews perplexed by change to Catholic catechism Reply with quote

markjwyatt wrote:
...The amateur apologist -- Sungenis has a doctorate in religious studies from a British school without U.S. accreditation ...


Sungenis the amateur. Sounds a bit like David vs. Goliath to me! I am surprised they did not pull the geocentrism card.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most modern Jews are anathema to the orthodox rabbinate, so I really don't understand why certain media figures and advocacy groups with 0 religious authority even within Judaism itself insist on taking the Catholic Church to task.

What they are really concerned about are promoting the dogmas of pluralism and advocating devotion to the same.

Perhaps they are a Branch Unholy Office of the Cultus Americanum?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Jews perplexed by change to Catholic catechism Reply with quote

markjwyatt wrote:
So when 200 U.S. bishops voted this summer to delete a reference to the covenant between God and Moses in the "United States Catholic Catechism for Adults," some Jewish leaders were perplexed.


Yeah, the same way your boss gets perplexed when you're late for the third time in a week

or the store is perplexed by your bounced check

or your wife is perplexed by the lipstick stain on your collar
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Jews perplexed by change to Catholic catechism Reply with quote

markjwyatt wrote:

Jews perplexed by change to Catholic catechism

By Daniel Burke
Religion News Service via Washington Post
Saturday, September 13, 2008
Link to original


-- also asserts that "an anti-Christian, Jewish influence has infiltrated the Catholic Church at the very highest levels."



More than just Jews Bob, but yeah, you got it, heavily infiltrated.

For educational purposes:
Quote:
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic Law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time (the promulgation of the Gospel) observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors.”


Of course I believe there's a little something else in this Bull that modern Catholics do not accept. Something about outside the church no one can be saved.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Jews perplexed by change to Catholic catechism Reply with quote

Bob Sungenis is old school tough.

Proud to have fought at his side on this one.

Expect the "anti-Semite" play to be ratcheted up hugely over the next phase of this battle between those who hold the Catholic faith and those who I think probably can accurately be termed the "neo-Judaizers" at the USCCB and associated "think tanks".

Tally-ho!
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ADL is a vicious purveyor of slander.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who cares about the Jews?

I do not for one.

I do not sit around wondering about their temple meetings.

They do not exist as far as I am concerned. Not worth the time of day.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:20 pm    Post subject: Crazy like a Fox Reply with quote

What SHOULD perplex Jews is why any Catholics would ever NOT try to convert everyone all the time.

After the Muslims have beheaded or blown up every other Jew in the world, Abe Foxman will still be ranting against Catholic prayers and catechisms.

He's a pisher.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must confess that I, too, am perplexed by the change to the Catholic catechism. I mean, what was wrong with the old one??
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Perplexed Jews Reply with quote

scribe wrote:
Why are these American Jews perplexed? Are they thick, or something?


They are stiffnecked people.

"You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do you also.

Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? And they have slain them who foretold of the coming of the Just One; of whom you have been now the betrayers and murderers:" Acts of the Apostles 7:51-52

the sacred last words of St. Stephen.....

Pray for them to know the true Messiah, our Lord Jesus Christ!
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

APOSTOLIC JOURNEY
OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
TO FRANCE ON THE OCCASION OF THE 150th ANNIVERSARY
OF THE APPARITIONS OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY AT LOURDES
(SEPTEMBER 12 - 15, 2008)

MEETING WITH REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY

ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI

Elysée Palace, Paris
Friday, 12 September 2008

Dear friends, it is with great pleasure that I meet with you this evening. Our meeting auspiciously coincides with the vigil of the weekly celebration of the shabbat, the day which from time immemorial has occupied a significant position in the religious and cultural life of the people of Israel. Every pious Jew sanctifies the shabbat with the reading of the Scriptures and the reciting of the Psalms. Dear friends, as you know, the prayer of Jesus also was nourished by the Psalms. Regularly he went to the temple and the synagogue. There he too listened to the word on the Sabbath. There he wanted to underline the goodness with which God cares for man, even in the arrangement of time. Does not the Talmud Yoma (85b) say: the Sabbath is offered to you, but you are not offered to the Sabbath? Christ has asked the people of the Covenant to recognize always the unprecedented greatness and love of the Creator for all humanity. Dear friends, because of that which unites us and that which separates us, we share a relationship that should be strengthened and lived. And we know that these fraternal bonds constitute a continual invitation to know and to respect one another better.

By her very nature the Catholic Church feels obliged to respect the Covenant made by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Indeed, the Church herself is situated within the eternal Covenant of the Almighty, whose plans are immutable, and she respects the children of the Promise, the children of the Covenant, as her beloved brothers and sisters in the faith. She compellingly repeats, through my voice, the words of the great Pope Pius XI, my beloved predecessor: Spiritually, we are Semites (Allocution to the Belgian Pilgrims, 16 September 1938). The Church therefore is opposed to every form of anti-Semitism, which can never be theologically justified. The theologian Henri de Lubac, in a time of darkness, as Pius XII (Summi Pontificatus, 10 October 1939) described it, added that to be anti-Semitic also signifies being anti-Christian (cf. Un nuovo fronte religioso in: Israele e la Fede Cristiana [1942]). Once again I feel the duty to pay heartfelt recognition to those who have died unjustly and to those that have dedicated themselves to assure that the names of these victims may always be remembered. God does not forget!

I cannot neglect, on an occasion such as this, to recall the eminent role played by the Jews of France in the building up of the whole nation and of their prestigious contribution to her spiritual patrimony. They have given - and continue to give - great figures to the spheres of politics, culture and the arts. To each one of them I extend affectionate and respectful wishes and with fervour I invoke upon all of your families and upon all of your communities a special Blessing of the Lord of time and of history. Shabbat shalom!

Vatican Website
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sgnofcross wrote:
APOSTOLIC JOURNEY
OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
TO FRANCE ON THE OCCASION OF THE 150th ANNIVERSARY
OF THE APPARITIONS OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY AT LOURDES
(SEPTEMBER 12 - 15, 2008)

MEETING WITH REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY

ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI

Elysée Palace, Paris
Friday, 12 September 2008

Dear friends, it is with great pleasure that I meet with you this evening. Our meeting auspiciously coincides with the vigil of the weekly celebration of the shabbat, the day which from time immemorial has occupied a significant position in the religious and cultural life of the people of Israel. Every pious Jew sanctifies the shabbat with the reading of the Scriptures and the reciting of the Psalms. Dear friends, as you know, the prayer of Jesus also was nourished by the Psalms. Regularly he went to the temple and the synagogue. There he too listened to the word on the Sabbath. There he wanted to underline the goodness with which God cares for man, even in the arrangement of time. Does not the Talmud Yoma (85b) say: the Sabbath is offered to you, but you are not offered to the Sabbath? Christ has asked the people of the Covenant to recognize always the unprecedented greatness and love of the Creator for all humanity. Dear friends, because of that which unites us and that which separates us, we share a relationship that should be strengthened and lived. And we know that these fraternal bonds constitute a continual invitation to know and to respect one another better.

By her very nature the Catholic Church feels obliged to respect the Covenant made by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Indeed, the Church herself is situated within the eternal Covenant of the Almighty, whose plans are immutable, and she respects the children of the Promise, the children of the Covenant, as her beloved brothers and sisters in the faith. She compellingly repeats, through my voice, the words of the great Pope Pius XI, my beloved predecessor: Spiritually, we are Semites (Allocution to the Belgian Pilgrims, 16 September 1938). The Church therefore is opposed to every form of anti-Semitism, which can never be theologically justified. The theologian Henri de Lubac, in a time of darkness, as Pius XII (Summi Pontificatus, 10 October 1939) described it, added that to be anti-Semitic also signifies being anti-Christian (cf. Un nuovo fronte religioso in: Israele e la Fede Cristiana [1942]). Once again I feel the duty to pay heartfelt recognition to those who have died unjustly and to those that have dedicated themselves to assure that the names of these victims may always be remembered. God does not forget!

I cannot neglect, on an occasion such as this, to recall the eminent role played by the Jews of France in the building up of the whole nation and of their prestigious contribution to her spiritual patrimony. They have given - and continue to give - great figures to the spheres of politics, culture and the arts. To each one of them I extend affectionate and respectful wishes and with fervour I invoke upon all of your families and upon all of your communities a special Blessing of the Lord of time and of history. Shabbat shalom!

Vatican Website


This makes it look like St. Stephen died for nothing.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sgnofcross wrote:
APOSTOLIC JOURNEY
OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
TO FRANCE ON THE OCCASION OF THE 150th ANNIVERSARY
OF THE APPARITIONS OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY AT LOURDES
(SEPTEMBER 12 - 15, 2008)...

...

...


What the-!
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