Some recent posts by the Okie Traditionalist on Tradition and the TLM

[Some recent posts by the Okie Traditionalist on Tradition and the TLM]

Wednesday, August 29, 2018

Who is the Guardian of Catholic Tradition Today? SSPX? FSSP? Motu Proprio?

Who are the Guardians of Catholic Tradition today?  The SSPX? The FSSP?  The Diocesan priests saying a motu proprio Latin Mass? Where is the ideal?  What is the most sane, practical, fruitful approach to preserving Tradition?  Which Mass location and approach is the best to support, that is doctrinal, spiritually fruitful, and most effective?
I am sure there are different positions people take on this, or many are unsure and just go where its the best fit for the personal needs of their family.  In the end, the primary considerations are the Mass, sacraments, and preserving the Faith.
And the Guardian in the Church of Tradition certainly is not Pope Francis, nor the majority of Bishops who have either forbidden the Latin Mass, relegated it off to an FSSP parish, or thwarted the canonical authority of the Motu Proprio.
In my view, it is the Society, but on a practical level, based on the necessity of a true, orthodox Mass, it is also to support the Motu Proprio.  The FSSP tends to think the Society is schismatic on some level, at least in some of its views, and often does not actively support diocesan priests wanting to say the Traditional Mass, which is unfortunate.
Which comes across like the FSSP holds itself out as the Guardian of Tradition, except not to restore it to the mainstream in the least, but to keep it quarantined off in their parishes, often tucked away on the outskirts of the city.
Often the Society holds itself as the main guardian, but not the only one.  It is largely responsible for the whole preservation of the Traditional Mass across the Universal Church these last five decades.  It emphatically states as a profession of faith that this Tradition is not a private preference, but a public obligation.  Therefore, it always supported in principle the previous Tridentine indults at the local level for individual diocesan priests turning back to Tradition.  And the Society and Pope Benedict are the ones responsible for Summorum Pontificum, clarifying the Ancient and Venerable Roman Rite is a Catholic right for all Roman rite priests and laity, everywhere, always.  Period.   Not only for priestly societies like the FSSP.
But the FSSP is historically and commonly opposed to the Society on many fundamental levels, both in the abstract and on a personal level.  Yet, the FSSP also appears to have largely been quiet and unsupportive of the Motu Proprio movement, but why?
What I would ask is, is the FSSP holding itself out to be, with the few other main Ecclesia Dei traditionalist societies, an Enclave outside the diocesan mainstream?  But at the same time being okay with the Novus Ordo deepening its hold on the diocese, and cooperating with the Novus Ordo-loving bishops to quarantine Tradition under their private control?
The answer is not clear to me, though I observe patterns and attitudes.  At The Hirsch Files blog, there is an excellent article detailing the historical divide between the FSSP and SSPX, which demonstrates very clearly that the FSSP was established to oppose the Society and “reconcile” traditionalists to the Vatican structure.  I am sure a minority will tolerate or sympathize with the work of Archbishop Lefebvre, which paved the road for the Fraternity/Ecclesia Dei movement in the first place, but most view the FSSP as The Place Catholics should go.
Not the SSPX.  And Not the Motu Proprio.  But the FSSP.
What concerns me most is how the structure of the FSSP and other Ecclesia Dei societies has been manipulated by the Vatican and anti-Tradition bishops to make them, as Archbishop Lefebvre often explained, a Bridge.
When asked about the FSSP, the Archbishop used that fitting analogy.  The Vatican erected the FSSP as a Bridge to bring the SSPX, and similar traditioalists, back “into the Church.”  But evidence points to a larger agenda, that unfortunately the FSSP ends up being party to, i.e. using this Bridge to eventually, over decades, gradually bring the Traditional Catholic into full conformity with the reforms of Vatican II and especially the post-concilar Liturgy.
At the very least, the FSSP does at least officially support priests to learn the Latin Mass.  Here is a link to their workshops.
Closing thoughts.  To me personally, we are all in a darkened desert trying to follow the surest path for our salvation.  The “Conciliar Church” has rejected us.  Too often we reject eachother too.  Schism upon schism upon schism.
So what to do?  Keep praying, working, studying, doing good works, going to Sunday Mass, the sacraments, and the best we can support the cause of preserving Catholic Tradition.

Monday, August 27, 2018

Okie Trad Statement: Tulsa Catholics, Do not Fear Losing your Latin Mass Experience.

(Edited 8/28)


The time has come to stop being afraid of speaking out against, resisting, and avoiding material participation with the apostate, corrupt, modernist powers-that-be in charge of the “institutional Church,” meaning the Modernist Establishment that has taken possession of the institutional structures — the Vatican, chancery office, the seminary, parish councils, and the collective majority of diocesan organizations.

We must not separate from the Church, our orthodox bishops and priests, nor the divine jurisdiction that does still run through the Diocesan System.  But it is because that historical System has become universally co-opted by heretics, and because the collective social body of our local Church scandalously tolerates and cooperates with this same cabal of heretics, i.e. the “Novus Ordo Establishment,” that we must recognize we are in a temporary state of separation from the diocesan structure, either formally as with the SSPX, or on a more practical, material level as with the FSSP.

This was not caused by us, nor something we are able to remedy at present.

The Establishment itself has forced traditional Catholics outside of the legal, parochial mainstream.  They have caused us to appear to be in a state of schism, when in fact they created that appearance of schism.  They rejected us and Traditional Catholicism.

The bad, faithless, confused Bishops, who collectively have taken in the  modernist and progressive spirit of Vatican II, those who are still orthodox, are the present divine Authority.  But they allowed this to happen, and must be held accountable in the most public, steadfast, and uncompromising way.

In the end, the Establishment church (the Novus Ordo) broke with us, with Catholic Tradition, with 2000 years of Catholic members of the Church, of 2000 years of popes and bishops, and with the Communion of the Saints.

We then are in a darkened desert, absolutely not of our making, i.e. those of us loyal to Catholic orthodoxy, and the integral necessity of Ecclesiastic tradition.  We are not in rebellion nor schism.

They are.

We must take this orthodox stance, refusing one bit of substantial compromise, even if that should mean the Establishment cancels our Latin Masses, kicks out our traditionalist priests, or ends our traditional parishes.

Even if the Establishment should then falsely brand local Catholic churches, that operate according to a canonical state of necessity, temporarily outside of the parochial structure, as breaking with the Church, when in fact the Establishment broke with them.

In the end, in line with what St. Athanasius told Catholics of his time, if they remove us from the physical churches, we faithful to Tradition are the true Church of Christ.

After this post, from now on I will no longer be discussing any details in my local Church, or regarding the official Tulsa diocese or in reference to any parish, whether good or bad, praiseworthy or publicly scandalous, and I will be ensuring complete anonymity from here on out.

Where then is the Catholic Church to be found today?

We must accept in principle, being faithful to the Doctrine of Christ and His Church, that the true Church resides today only with those Prelates, priests, and laity who clearly hold to all the teachings of the Catholic Church.  If they demonstrate a religious praxis that clearly revolts against the doctrine of the Faith, if they make repeated statements contrary to dogma and doctrine, then those men are probably not Catholic and therefore should be avoided as probable non-members.

And let’s not cry donatism.  If they are bad clergy, but orthodox, then yes of course they still have authority and confer valid sacraments;  and if they excommunicate themselves, their sacraments are still valid, in case of grave necessity.

Considering the state of apostasy throughout the Universal Church, i.e. INSIDE the Church, it is reasonable to conclude that the majority of diocesan bishops, and priests under them, are not Catholic members.  And the more they enable or protect the underground, homosexualist, pedophile, predator clerical establishment that is universal in the Church, the more they try to silence orthodox Catholics who reject their “Church of Nice,” the more likely they have already excommunicated themselves from the Church by the heresies that almost always correspond with those grave abuses.

My Local Diocese:

Therefore, until the Diocese of Tulsa, as with all the dioceses, once and for all properly, directly, and immediately starts to investigate the Presbyterate for homosexual-pedophile-pederast priests, to protect our children, and therefore officially starts rooting out Catholic progressivism/modernism (i.e. The Novus Ordo Establishment) from the diocesan, clerical structure, which fuels them, then that organizational structure in general has separated from us, and left us to fend for ourselves.

Therefore, I am bound by conscience to avoid any material, financial, moral, or otherwise support, at the official level, of the diocesan structure per se.

That said, since Christ implicitly established different levels of the Church — i.e. a) the Universal Church, b) the local Church under a territorial Bishop, and c) the most local, public community of believers in one place, then I am required by divine and church law to support our Church at all levels, including at Sunday Mass unless impeded from attending.

And heresy, sacrilege, and gross liturgical irreverence impede such attendance, aside from your understanding of the Novus Ordo liturgy.

At the level of the Church under my bishop, Bishop Konderla of Tulsa, I absolutely support in principle my bishop, and in practice give obedience to him only when not required to sin, or place myself in serious compromise to faith and morals, and I recognize all priests and laity under him, only if they are true, orthodox, Catholics.

How much I like them personally, or think they are progressive or modernistic, or are faithful shepherds, has absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether or not they are true, valid, members of the Church.  To suggest otherwise is a red herring.

At this point, I have not heard anything formally heretical being promoted by our bishop (heterodoxy is a different form of sin against doctrine, that does not exclude one from the Church), but in my experience as a Tulsa Catholic for decades, most Tulsa diocesan priests and laity are actively rejecting certain Church teachings, and therefore placing themselves outside the Church.  Therefore, on that scale it is impossible to trust or rely upon as legitimate Catholic members, the Tulsa diocesan Presbyterate as a collective body, or all those whocollectively officially belong to diocesan parishes, who claim to be Catholic.  God will judge if individual are formally Catholic, but the apostasy really is so universal that we can only trust and follow those clergy and faithful who give outward signs they are orthodox.

That means that as I look out across the landscape of my local Church, without necessarily judging individual laity and priests, I see that the vast majority are objectively, in the external forum (God judges the internal forum) in a state of heresy, schism, and excommunication.

On a practical level then, what that means as a traditional Catholic, is that I must disregard for now support of the diocesan/chancery structure, even more so more than ever in view of the current clerical, sex abuse crisis, and hold ordinary, ecclesial communion in my daily life only with those Catholics who demonstrate outwardly that they hold the true Christian Faith.

On a practical level then, I will only support those priests and laity who demonstrate clearly in the public life of their own parish community, as in their behavior during liturgical worship, devotional life, and public teachings, clear signs of professed Catholic orthodoxy.

If you Strongly Disagree with Me:

If you go to an approved Latin Mass, such as with the FSSP, and find my perspective and approach to be objectively offensive and contrary to the Catholic Faith, on a personal level I cannot oppose you.  The exact nature of this present ecclesial Crisis, and how to respond to it, has not been dogmatically and decisively resolved by the Universal Church.  Therefore, each person must study current Church history and events, and especially the traditional catechesis of the Church, to determine exactly which course to take, or what parish church to go to.

That said, on an objective level, you are in a state of grave error.  You are substantially supporting the Latin Mass as an “option” of personal preference.  You believe in false obedience and a servile posture to the Hierarchy.  You are treating Catholic Tradition as something confined to personal enlightenment and private experience.

And that unfortunately is the de facto position and orientation of all Ecclesia Dei communities, since several SSPX priests approached Pope John Paul II to found the FSSP in 1988.

In the end, this is how that inverted, contradictory attitude plays out.  Sooner or later, the devotion to Catholic Tradition gets watered down, with more compromises to the novus ordo religion, with more and more false capitulations.  The hard-liners  defenders of Catholic Tradition get more and more marginalized.  And when the right bishop or presbyteral council is then in place, you/we are sitting ducks.

It is just a matter of time before the modernist powers that be shut down the local, traditional apostolate, unless there is a miracle, and Christ through the authority of the Church restores Her pastoral teaching and praxis.   And not because of a couple local trad bloggers, or “rad trads” “stirring up trouble,” but because the diocesan modernists hate your very existence.  They hate the very existence of what you are preserving in your parish church.  Their words and actions for decades demonstrate clearly they hate Traditional Catholicism, and therefore Traditional Catholics.

And they will take advantage of your deafening silence, politically correct group think, and Stockholm Syndrome, to one day snuff you out.

As is the case already here in the Tulsa diocese, since Bishop Slattery retired, in the case of 4 Tradition-minded Catholic communities (Doloran Fathers, Mother Miriam’s community, the Bishop Slattery’s 10 am Sunday Latin Novus Ordo community, and now soon, as reported, likely the one diocesan Latin Mass community still tolerated for now by chancery leadership).

But losing your Latin Mass and parish won’t be the real tragedy.  If, and I say IF, you fundamentally hate and oppose the orthodox views I am expressing here, your state of compromise and privatized preference for Sacred Tradition will eventually mean a crisis of faith and despair, when your Latin Mass is cancelled.  You are setting yourself up for a major spiritual let down by trusting the diocesan structure, or to make a distinction, the Apostate Establishment that controls it, no matter how “conservative” the diocese is portrayed.


We must not be afraid, but be prepared with holy indifference to lose the Latin Mass and our approved traditional parishes to be shut down, if it comes to that.

God will provide.  Some will drive the long distance to another Latin Mass.  Others may decide to sit quietly in the back pew praying at the cathedral, passively in attendance united only spiritually to the Holy Sacrifice on the altar.  Until one day another faithful bishop supports the true Mass again.  Whatever the case, I am willing to accept that outcome, rather than be falsely obedient, false to myself, or false to others.  One situation is a meritorious state of sorrow and hardship on behalf of the true God;  the other situation is a state of moral and doctrinal compromise.

What Me and Mine Will Continue to Do:

As I always have since I converted to Catholic Tradition nearly 20 years ago, I will absolutely put no trust in the “institutional Church” or diocese.  I will also not place all my faith and trust in the “traditionalist movement” either (SSPX, FSSP, or otherwise) as if it were a “pure, innocent, shining savior of the Church,” which it isn’t, and which would be misguided.   And, I absolutely will not compromise on a doctrinal or practical level to the New Religion, ever, not in one little tiny way, even if that brands me as crazy, weird, or backward.

I will instead place my trust in God, in Christ, in his divine Church, in principle the pope, bishops, and priests only if they are 100% orthodox, and therefore still Catholics.  I will maintain courage and hope, and constantly resist ecclesial discouragement or despair no matter the state of the Church, either Universal or in my own parish.

And I will, until the day I die, publicly and constantly promote as I do on these pages, according to the limits and dictates of my state in life, the traditional Catholic Faith and Church, while opposing the apostate, Novus Ordo church.  I will not be afraid of those modernist powers who illegally threaten our Catholic devotional life.

They can take away our weekly Latin Mass, they can take away our churches, they can kick the FSSP out of the diocese, they can shut down every diocesan, motu proprio Latin Mass.

But in the end, we will have the Catholic Faith!

Lastly, Some Changes:

If you know me in real life, you may have already suspected this, but in the general realm of commonality with like-minded, similar personalities in the traditionalist movement, many who likewise don’t “fit in” with the parish club, I will continue to carry on in our own reserved space from the pew and parking lot, offering our donations, prayers, moral support, and where prudent and especially where welcome, our very selves.

The petty disputes, incivility, insular coldness, intra-parish divisions must come to and end.  No Latin Mass parish is free of these problems.  We must be patient, tolerate legitimate differences in opinion and perspective on open subjects, and help each other get to heaven.

Oh, and after reading this long post, be rest assured that such polemical posts regarding my local Church will be coming to an end.  No more reports on how the Diocese may be undoing Catholic Tradition here.  The flack and outright online (and in the flesh) threatening gestures I get for those kind of posts is just not worth the time and mental energy.

To those I’ve hinted or indicated in the flesh that I write this blog, consider what I said unofficial.  From here on out if someone approaches me in person and asks “Are you that Okie Traditionalist blogger?” unless they seem disposed to pat me on the back about this work, I will not be sharing with people that I am the author of this blog.

I will be focusing my writing instead on the  Universal Church, the traditonal Catholic Faith, our personal life in Oklahoma, the good, true, and beautiful, and all that interests me day to day.

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