LaVori$’s Payma$ter $queak$ up… Trads are “Halloween” Catholics

The Detroit penny opera performances continue their regularly scheduled matinees, to the delight of tone deaf fans everywhere….

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Feldwebel
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Posts: 2081
Pray for the Dead.

Religion: Catholic

Response I just recieved from Terry Carroll at CMTV.

« on: October 27, 2014, 09:13:51 AM »

I wrote to Church Militant TV, politely requesting that they stop bashing other Catholics and help unification in the Church.
Here is CMTV’s response:

“Dear Dan,

“Will Mr. Voris and CMTV not acknowledge The Remnant’s cordial tone”?

Yes, Their tone is cordial. So what? Should we write Michael Matt and thank him for being cordial? Is that all you are asking?

Soldiers in battle on opposing sides may admire each other’s dedication and skill in battle, they may be truly impressed with each other’s fortitude and courage, but they are still fighting on opposing sides and “weakness” by either with regard to the other can prove fatal. You don’t compromise with error or evil. You fight it and strive to defeat it.

The Remnant fails to accept that when you attack the Pope PUBLICLY, as they do in virtually every issue, they are attacking the Church. “The Pope is Different,” as we articulated in our Vortex episode with that name, and elsewhere (see FAQ: ChurchMilitant.TV Will Not Engage in Public Criticism of the Pope, video It Always Comes Back to the Pope, video The Pope is Different). One CAN criticize the Pope but, because “the Pope is different,” one must be VERY careful that, in doing so, one doesn’t lead people away from the Church into “real” or “practical” sedevacantism. The Pope represents the Church in a way that bishops and priests do not. You can criticize bishops against a “horizon” of love for the Church. You can’t criticize the Pope without risking a blurring of that “horizon” because the Pope represents and symbolizes the unity of the Church in a way that bishops and priests do not.​

CMTV is routinely misunderstood as saying “No one can criticize the Pope” or “No one can even think critical thoughts about the Pope” or “Criticizing the Pope is a sin.” That’s all nonsense and not supported by ANY of our public or private statements. PUBLIC criticism of the Pope has consequences and, in the case of The Remnant and Catholic Family News, can be documented as leading people out of the Church and/or encouraging those who have left to remain there. Accusations that our criticism of priests, bishops and cardinals produces the same results cannot be documented. It’s purely hypothetical. We have NEVER received an email from ANYONE saying that, because of our criticism of the hierarchy, they have left the Catholic Church. We receive lots of emails telling us that our “tone” and “style” and “content” will or has had that effect, but there is no concrete evidence that this has ever happened even once. The Remnant, however, provides its own evidence of the results of its actions in the countless examples of the consequences of their support for the SSPX. They support the SSPX, their readers are frequently participants in SSPX settings as their normal practice of the Faith, and they have no hesitation encouraging people to follow that route out of the Church and staying there.

I’m sure you object to the allegation that the SSPX is an example of being “out of the Church.” That objection is implicit in your belief that there are clear distinctions between the SSPX and the “Sedes,” as well as your claim that the SSPX “acknowledge the pope and all that comes with him–the good and the bad,” not to mention your statement that “CMTV does not need to bash the SSPX.” These are all demonstrably false claims. The SSPX are, if anything, “Halloween Catholics,” i.e. they dress up and play Catholic probably better than most but, at the end of the day, unlike Halloween revelers dressed as Spider Man, they actually believe that they are the characters that they are playing.

Consider what the SSPX and the “Sedes” have in common: none of their clergy are part of the divinely ordained hierarchical structure of the Church (their bishops don’t submit to Rome and all their priests submit to bishops who don’t submit to Rome), all of their clergy are suspended a divinis, none of their clergy have canonically required faculties to hear confessions or preside at Catholic marriages (making confessions invalid due to lack of faculties and marriages invalid due to lack of canonical form), and none of their clergy have a “canonical status” or a “legitimate ministry” (it’s amusing how often you hear SSPX apologists refer to their canonical status as “irregular” when it’s irrefutable that the Holy Father himself said their canonical status is “none”). I don’t know about the “Sedes” but it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that they, just like the SSPX, have their own marriage tribunals, clearly something not supported by canon law. The SSPX and the “Sedes” are “branches” once attached to the life-giving vine that have separated themselves from that vine. Because of the life-giving vine from which they have separated themselves, it’s not surprising that they would continue to show signs of life after separation but, as is inevitable, they will eventually wither and die from lack of nourishment or, more likely, become their own flavor of Catholicism claiming to be Catholics who judge union with Rome not to be a constitutive part of Roman Catholicism. Even Protestantism has evolved in this way.

What the SSPX and “Sedes” do NOT have in common is the expressed desire by the SSPX to be “reconciled” with the Church. That is, indisputably, a good thing. However, in all visible ways, the SSPX and the “Sedes” are almost indistinguishable because of all the things they have in common. They each have their own bishops, not in communion with Rome and, although the SSPX claims to want to reconcile with the Church, in practice they do not submit to the authority of the Church any more than the “Sedes” do. In practice what we see is the Church inviting the SSPX to reconcile with Her (“invited to rediscover the path to full communion with the Church”) and the SSPX striving to convince the Church to reconcile with them! Again, this is the same strategy employed by Protestantism: “we’d love to be one with you, but you have to agree with us, first.”

I don’t know that CMTV “bashes” the SSPX so much as subjects them to the same scrutiny that we subject all religious groups that are in error and not in union with the Church in Rome. The SSPX constantly pledges fidelity to “Eternal Rome,” an invisible communion with strong resemblance to the “universal and invisible church” of Protestantism. And, like Protestantism, they arrogate to themselves the authority to interpret and teach both Scripture and Tradition. There is really no authority to which the bend their will outside of themselves and the “Eternal Rome” in the sky. You have to be blind not to see all the similarities between the SSPX and Protestantism, except the SSPX, as “Halloween Catholics,” put on a better show of playing Catholic while the Protestants (even the High Anglicans) do not.

It is a constitutive part of Roman Catholicism to be in communion with the Chair of Peter, the Vicar of Christ. The SSPX recognize this in theory but violate this in practice. If this were the story of the Good Samaritan, the Church is lying by the side of the road having been mugged by enemies, and the SSPX comes by and not only does not help the Church in Her suffering but loots Her of Her property and goes off to do what they perceive the Church can no longer do. They are “Halloween Catholics” playing Catholic with the looted goodies that they stole from the Church and use independent of Her.

As long as The Remnant and Catholic Family News continue to give aid and comfort to enemies of the Church like the SSPX, there are no conciliatory gestures that can be made by CMTV that would not also make us complicit in the harm they do to the Church. If they can “see the light” and not only abandon their support of the SSPX but use their considerable editorial muscle to convince the SSPX of the need to reconcile with the Church for the sake of the Church and their own souls, then we won’t really need conciliatory gestures so much as a “welcome home to the Church” party and we can fight as brothers within the Church Militant. The Prodigal Son was welcomed home by his father once the father saw his son’s repentance. If The Remnant and Catholic Family News will repent of their support of those who sin against the unity of the Church, there is MUCH that we can do together. But not before.

When this “estrangement” began to surface this past January and February, Michael Voris invited Michael Matt to come to our studio and address all these issues in person rather than through email and telephone calls. Michael Voris had trips scheduled, and so did Michael Matt, and no meeting occurred. Maybe you can convince Michael Matt to pick up the phone and call Michael Voris to re-schedule this mutually desired meeting. Michael is, as I write, on his way back from Rome and not available immediately, but he will be back in the office and able to take calls by Tuesday. There is much that CMTV and The Remnant and Catholic Family News can do together, but not unless we are all truly Catholic.

God bless you.

Terry Carroll “

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11 comments on “LaVori$’s Payma$ter $queak$ up… Trads are “Halloween” Catholics

  1. “Opie Dopie, you’re the one
    Now you’re havin’ so much fun
    Opie Dopie, Mike’s awfully in debt
    To yooooouuuuuu!”

    (With thanks to AQ’s crack creative artists and producers – currently hiring composers, screenwriters, storyboard artists and talent screeners for its upcoming major project, “Bésame Avinide: Jorge, Ernie the Muppet and Josemaria Escriva – the Musical ! “)

    [This just in: With sincere regrets, we have just been informed that Patti Smith and Elton John have unfortunately intervened with ASCAP, on behalf of the “Vatican Dicastery for Multicultural Artists”, and it appears that Catholic composers will be subject to litigation if they submit original scores to this project… AQ’s litigators will provide updates as events warrant.]

  2. We have NEVER received an email from ANYONE saying that, because of our criticism of the hierarchy, they have left the Catholic Church.

    Have they EVER received an email from ANYONE saying that they were converting to the Church despite Pope Francis’ hideous behavior and theology, and are glad that CMTV explained the truth and that God can send us popes who do wrong? Also thanking them for proving that Catholics do not blindly follow or excuse the pope, even as the pope remains the center of unity for the Church?

    Have a nice day, Terry and Mike.

  3. “As long as The Remnant and Catholic Family News continue to give aid and comfort to enemies of the Church like the SSPX, there are no conciliatory gestures that can be made by CMTV that would not also make us complicit in the harm they do to the Church.”
    Well. if there was any doubt about their motives (CMTV), this reveals all we need to know. Away with them!

  4. They each have their own bishops, not in communion with Rome
    Is Terry criticizing Pope Benedict’s lifting of excommunications, or saying that it was invalid?

    Terry rightly points out the SSPX marriage tribunal as being a serious issue. While I can’t defend the SSPX on that, I’d like to note the irony of Terry bringing it up. Isn’t Pope Francis, by the work of HIS Synod, effectively undermining the sanctity of marriage? A little pot and kettle issue, Terry?

  5. These people are not to be taken seriously. They are fit only to be objects of ridicule, from their fantasy porn author to their Ken-doll leader and to this intellectually bereft Carroll creature.

  6. A mere criticism of externals. The content of the dispute is not examined. Religious freedom is not mentioned, nor collegiality, nor ecumenism.

    I hope and pray no one visiting here read this post and be persuaded that somehow SSPX and protestantism have anything in common. If the content is examined, protestantism was for those three items and the Church never was. Vatican II protestantized the Church and SSPX has held firm against it.

    Poor Bishop Fellay. If he withdraws, he’s a sede, if he stays out there in the porch in the rain, knocking (his image), he’s a conciliator.

    The content of the dispute must be examined, not form. Is or is not the cry for religious freedom traditional Catholic teaching? I wish I knew these guys, I’d ask them, but I’m not even acquainted, they are so boring. They don’t want to fight the issues, they want to stay asleep in their dream of Catholicism where the pope is always right and perfect, and our job is easy, just go along.

  7. Terry is setting the bait. This isn’t about the SSPX or the bleeps. This is about Pope Francis and what he’s doing to the Church. And Jan is right, it’s about doctrine. Voris would like to make this about the SSPX because he can draw a lot of sympathy from the neoCats. That’s a diversion, and we shouldn’t take the bait.

    Voris originally based his opposition to criticism on the example of Noah’s sons. His argument is incorrect, as I’ve pointed out earlier. It is merely Voris’ opinion, and my opinion is that he has a false sense of obedience. He may remain silent, and that is not necessarily wrong. However, he has chosen to vilify those who choose to criticize. That was uncalled for, and now he wants to double-down and make Catholics choose sides. Sorry, Michael. I won’t play along.

  8. Terry, Michael and all at CMTV……Join us next October 31st for the 1st annual
    SSPX Great Pumpkin vigil!! Join Bishop Fellay, Linus and Sally, and special guests Charlie Brown, Lucy, Snoopy, Woodstock, Michael Matt, John Venari, Chris Ferarra and other “enemies of the Church” in what promises to be a most “schismatically frightening” evening!!! Events include a Catholic costume contest, “rad trad” pumpkin carving contest and a “pope bashing” contest!

    See you there!!
    Trick or treat dudes!!!!!!!

  9. Terry Carroll turned the whole debate from an essential discussion about the Pope and the legitimate obedience and respect due to him into an argument about the SSPX.

    Nice try Terry.

    However, the issue is now, and will continue to be, whether Catholics have the right, even the duty, to question or object to words or actions of the Pope that harm the Church.

    I, for one, am not a Papalotirst. I do not worship the Pope. I believe he is the Vicar of Christ, the head of the Church on earth, who, in certain specified circumstances can make infallible pronouncements on faith and morals.
    I also believe he is a fallible human being, who like the first Pope St Peter, can say silly things or even doctrinally questionable things at times. As when St Peter was PUBLICLY corrected by St Paul for siding with the party who wanted to reimpose Jewish ritual laws on the first Christians as essential for salvation. St Paul made quick work of that by reminding St Peter that Christ died for us and is the way to Heaven.

    Strange that apparently it is OK to correct the first Pope for a mistake, but, according to Mr Carroll, we must now remain totally silent in the face of far more numerous mistakes from the present Pope.

    St Paul knew that a mistake from the Vicar of Christ could not be left unchallenged as it would lead the whole Church astray!

    Strange that for Mr Carroll and Mr Voris, that scenario can apply to the first Pope but not for the present Pope! Apparently errors from the present Pope do not lead the Church astray, only errors from priests, bishops and cardinals!!!!

    Can anyone see the logic of the CMTV stand?

  10. The “logic” at CMtv is entirely financial.

    Its base is 99% neo-Cat, EWTN types. In other words, 99.9% clueless.

    If LaVoris were to stand up, wiggle his pencil in front of the blue screen and say anything REMOTELY FACTUAL about Jorge (including his manifest, objective violations against numerous oecumenical councils, sainted popes and Doctors) CMtv’s audience would evaporate overnight.

    LaVoris has tried to build a mini-empire on playbook broadcast strategy. Give ’em a snappy lead-in, attention-holding graphics, work in an effective “story line” and wrap it all up with a punch. In fact, he accomplishes that and his fan base is loyal as heck. And that is because, as I said, it’s 99.9% clueless.

    While podcasting on the internet is nothing compared to real broadcasting, it still costs and it would seem to me that he has yet to exceed the break-even point with subscribers covering operating expenses.

    Thus the series of “angel$$$.” And, like in all ventures, them with the gold – rules.

  11. For the disciples of “the red nosed Pope” to talk about Halloween costumes is the height of hypocrisy. Not to mention the bizarre costumes in which the unholy but “ordinary” rite of “Mass” is celebrated. Were God not merciful they would be forever associated with clown, demon, and lion Kings (among a vast myriad of absurdities) vestments. Now is the time to “send OUT the clowns.”. Now is the time to end the schism of Montini-Wojtyla (now that of Motini-Bergoglio) which rejects communion with actual Catholics, while uniting with those who have abandoned the true Faith.

    Pray for the conversion of those who think they are protecting the Church by making error seem reasonable.

    In Xto,
    M_Eulogius

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